1 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:44,520 Oh. 2 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:52,480 Do you work here? 3 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:55,400 - Um, I'm a visitor. - Right. 4 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:02,160 Right. Do you wanna just come through for a second? 5 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:05,120 Sorry. I'm a bit late. 6 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:09,000 That's all right. I saw you coming up on the cameras. 7 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:10,520 He's being brought down. 8 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:14,280 Um, I heard he was involved in a violent incident. 9 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:17,200 - How'd you hear that? - It was reported up. 10 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:20,280 - That would be useful to see… - Is that… relevant? 11 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:21,920 To what you'll assess? 12 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:24,440 I'd like to see it. 13 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:28,400 Okay. I'll, uh, fire up the megaport. 14 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:39,480 Yeah, he's been pretty quiet. 15 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:42,440 Don't know if that's relevant. 16 00:01:42,960 --> 00:01:47,600 If what I think and observe is relevant to what you assess. 17 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:50,480 Here we go. 18 00:01:57,280 --> 00:01:59,960 - Yeah. It's just bruising and scratching. - I read the report. 19 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,520 - Both blame the other. - I know. I read the report. 20 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:08,000 You're on… five visits? 21 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:10,040 - Yes. - Mm. 22 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:11,920 Know what you're gonna say in the report? 23 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:14,320 I wouldn't be here if I knew that. 24 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:18,040 Well, the other one of you. He only needed three, so… 25 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:19,360 You can't say any more. 26 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:22,200 It's important I don't know what the other psychologist says, 27 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:23,680 does, or thinks. 28 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:31,400 It's about making the right assessment, not the fastest. 29 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:35,600 - Sorry. I'm just being an idiot. - No, I did… That's just the way I work. 30 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:42,480 Right. That's Jamie in place. 31 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:43,720 I'll take you through. 32 00:02:44,640 --> 00:02:47,240 I need to get a hot chocolate from the machine. 33 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:48,520 I remember. 34 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:33,440 Get off me! 35 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:36,480 No! You get off! 36 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:39,640 Yeah, we've got a torture lab in the basement. 37 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:42,400 Government approved. All very hush-hush. 38 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:44,000 What are they? 39 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:46,400 He likes his hot chocolate with marshmallows on. 40 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:49,480 You must mean business. Never done them before. 41 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:52,440 That was, uh, Mark, I think. 42 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:55,520 Radiator burns all over him, poor kid. 43 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:59,000 I don't know what he did to get here, though. 44 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:02,200 He's not famous like your Jamie. 45 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:05,480 - Come on! - Two of us on the way now. 46 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:09,320 Right. You know where I am. 47 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:16,640 - You okay? - Yes. 48 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:21,200 - Hi, Jamie. - Hi. 49 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:24,200 - You need us, we're here. - Yes. 50 00:04:24,280 --> 00:04:26,120 - Same goes for you, Jamie. - Yeah. 51 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:27,880 We'll be watching, okay? 52 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:35,160 Hot chocolate. 53 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:36,680 Spri… Sprinkles? 54 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:37,880 Lots of them. 55 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:41,240 You remembered. Thank you. 56 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:44,920 And I saved you half my sandwich in case you were hungry. 57 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:46,000 What is it? 58 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:47,960 Cheese and pickle. 59 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:50,320 No tomatoes? 60 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:52,560 Tomatoes don't go very well with pickle. 61 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:54,200 No salad? 62 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:56,440 Would I do that to you? 63 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,560 There's no tomatoes. No salad. There's just cheese and pickle. 64 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:06,080 - Do you want it? I'll save it for later. - No. I'll have it. 65 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:09,880 Ah, I… I don't know about pickle, though, but… I'll have it. 66 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:15,520 - Did you make it? - Yes. 67 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:18,480 - You make butties, do you? - What, you think that's weird? 68 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:21,400 No. My mum makes 'em. 69 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:23,280 Well, that makes two of us, then. 70 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:26,960 This is nice. 71 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:28,000 It's a bit hot. 72 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:29,720 I don't mind hot. 73 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:39,080 - You're looking better than last time. - What's that supposed to mean? 74 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:41,560 You've just got some of your color back. 75 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:45,000 - You sound like a granny. - Do I? 76 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:47,680 "Oh, you got your color back. You can't have been that ill." 77 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:50,520 - That's a good voice. - No. 78 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:54,120 Do you see your grandparents much? 79 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:58,040 - Well, not recently, no. - No, I meant before all this. 80 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:00,480 Yeah, a bit. 81 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:03,840 My dad's side… my dad's mum and dad. My mum didn't get on with hers. 82 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:05,640 Yeah, we spoke about that. 83 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:09,480 So, what are your dad's parents like? 84 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:13,000 I don't know. Like him. 85 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:14,920 Well, what does that mean? 86 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:20,280 They like things as they like them. "No gravy. Such a shame." 87 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:23,800 Or, "I like a slice with my dinner if you've got one in, Amanda." 88 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:26,280 A slice… A slice of what? 89 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:28,960 Bread. 90 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:32,480 - You're posh, aren't ya? - No, I'm just not from where you're from. 91 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:35,080 Well, what do you call bread if you don't call it a slice? 92 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:36,440 Mm, bread? 93 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:39,960 You're posh. 94 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:42,400 If it makes you happy that I am, Jamie, then I am. 95 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:45,480 Well, what do you call your grandad? Bet you call him "Grandpa." 96 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:47,040 - I do not. - I bet you do. 97 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:48,560 I call him "Pop-pop." 98 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:49,640 What? 99 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:51,200 Do ya? 100 00:06:51,280 --> 00:06:54,080 - Yes, I do. - Wow! 101 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:57,440 - Jesus. I've not heard that one before. - I don't know why. 102 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:00,560 Okay. Maybe he asked me to call him that. I'm not sure. 103 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:02,760 God, you're really posh. 104 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:06,840 Are you not gonna try the sandwich? 105 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:10,120 I'll have it later. It's just… the pickle. 106 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:12,320 Hate it. 107 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:13,560 You hate it? 108 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:16,360 - Oh, I really messed up, then. - Yeah, you did. 109 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:17,480 Okay. 110 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:21,400 So, can we talk a bit about you? 111 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:24,480 You see a lot of your dad in your grandad, do you? 112 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:26,480 Yeah, I don't know. 113 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:30,280 Is it just what they say, or how they do things? 114 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:32,320 What's your dad and his dad like? 115 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:34,120 Men. 116 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:39,200 Okay. Well, would "masculine" be an okay word to use? 117 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:41,120 You used it. 118 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,640 When I hear the word "masculine," I think they can mend things. 119 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:47,800 They like to make things. 120 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:51,200 They like sports. They like going to the pub. 121 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:53,200 Yeah. 122 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:56,120 Not the pub, but, yeah. 123 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:57,760 Your dad doesn't go to the pub? 124 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:00,520 No, not… not really. 125 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:02,600 Not as much as my pop-pop. 126 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:05,960 - Not gonna let me forget that, are you? - No. 127 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:09,760 So, your grandad's more of a pub man, is he? 128 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:14,280 I dunno. He… He's not around that much anymore. 129 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:15,360 How much? 130 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:19,080 Every other Sunday, maybe. 131 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:21,520 Sometimes in the week when they're both… 132 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:24,960 Mum and Dad are both working, but that's more Granny. 133 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:27,640 A bit more in the holidays. 134 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:30,640 - We went to Tenerife with them once. - On holiday? 135 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:33,400 No, banana picking. 136 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:38,560 - Obviously it was on holiday. - Okay. 137 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:43,920 I don't think I've ever heard anyone use banana picking in a comeback. 138 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:52,040 I suppose the other thing I think about when I hear the word "masculine" 139 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:53,800 would be the way that masculine men… 140 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:56,160 This started 'cause I said you sounded like a granny. 141 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:58,040 What? 142 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:01,280 This all started because I said you sounded like a granny. 143 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:04,560 And now you're just going on about masculine stuff. 144 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:05,720 Yes. 145 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,200 The first time you came, you had actual questions. 146 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:11,160 "Is this right, Jamie? Do you know whether this is wrong, Jamie?" 147 00:09:11,680 --> 00:09:14,640 - Now you're just chatting shit. - I hope I'm not. 148 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:17,160 Well, you are, because the first time you're all, 149 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:20,360 "If an adult guinea pig eats one of its kids, is that normal or weird?" 150 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:22,600 - And now you're, "What do you call bread?" - Come on. 151 00:09:22,680 --> 00:09:24,240 - I'm interested. - It feels like a trick. 152 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:26,240 Trick? Trick into what? 153 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:29,120 My dad's okay. 154 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:31,320 All right? 155 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:33,880 Okay. I know. 156 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:35,920 Just talking about him. 157 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:38,080 There isn't a need. 158 00:09:40,680 --> 00:09:44,200 Fine, if that's how you feel. But I'm not trying to trick you. 159 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:50,360 - And now I've pissed you off. - No. 160 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:56,520 Can I see your notes? What you've got written down about me? 161 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:58,640 - Do you see me writing? - You must write stuff. 162 00:09:58,720 --> 00:09:59,920 Yes. 163 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,680 Can I see what you wrote? What you've written? 164 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:04,400 Of course you can't. 165 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:08,440 - The lawyers have said you work for us. - That's not what they say, Jamie. 166 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:11,320 And I know that because I asked them the last time you said that to me. 167 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:13,160 You talk to them? 168 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:16,560 I explained. I've been employed by your team, but I don't work for you. 169 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:19,080 - What do you tell them? - I'm writing an independent… 170 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:23,720 - What do they say to you? - A presentence offense report. 171 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:26,760 Which the judge will read to get an understanding of you 172 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:29,240 and your understanding of the charges. Okay? 173 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:35,880 All I want to do is talk to you, Jamie, and have you talk to me. 174 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:40,120 Yes, I've asked some straightforward questions. 175 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:41,280 But I think… 176 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:42,600 Am I boring you? 177 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:44,760 - No. - Okay. 178 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:52,080 I think you, and everyone else for that matter, 179 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:55,280 are far more complex than straightforward questions allow for. 180 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:59,480 We had a good conversation last time. Can we try that again? 181 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:01,600 What did we talk about last time? 182 00:11:01,680 --> 00:11:04,480 We spoke about your friends, your sister, your mum. We went… 183 00:11:04,560 --> 00:11:06,920 - Can't remember saying anything about 'em. - Well, you did. 184 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:10,440 How you feel about them. How Lisa's doing. What you think your mum thinks of you. 185 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:13,760 - Now you wanna talk about my dad? - I want to talk about lots of things. 186 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:21,480 I could tell you questions that I wrote down to talk to you about today. 187 00:11:21,560 --> 00:11:22,720 If that helps. 188 00:11:23,560 --> 00:11:25,000 All right. Yeah. 189 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:29,680 Okay. Well, I wanted to talk about the fight you had. 190 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:32,600 - That was nothing. - I was interested why you got in a fight. 191 00:11:32,680 --> 00:11:34,640 - He hit me first. - Why? 192 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:37,920 Because we've had beef over stuff. 193 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:40,240 It doesn't matter. It wasn't a proper fight. 194 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:42,520 - It's not that interesting? - It's not. 195 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:44,360 Okay, let's move on. 196 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:47,200 - What? I'm in charge now, am I? - Mm. Maybe. 197 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:54,920 I also wrote down that I wanted to talk to you about what being a man feels like. 198 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:57,800 You want a cock and balls, do ya? 199 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:02,640 I'm interested in what being a man feels like for you. 200 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:04,520 I dunno. 201 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:06,760 It's too big a question, right? 202 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:09,240 And the fight's too small a question. 203 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:13,120 Which is why it's more useful for me to see where the conversation goes 204 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:17,400 and steer it a bit into what you think of your dad and your grandad, for instance. 205 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:19,120 The type of men you think they are. 206 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:23,040 Rather than saying, "So, Jamie, what do you think being a man feels like?" 207 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:27,440 "So, Jamie, what do you think being a man feels like?" 208 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:28,800 It's not a trick. 209 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:33,560 It's just a conversation. 210 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:40,280 So, do you think it would be okay if we speak about your dad? 211 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,720 Can I just see your notes? What you wrote, how you wrote it? 212 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:47,800 Nope. 213 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:49,800 You're not that in charge. 214 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:54,440 Does your dad like his job? 215 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:57,480 He fixes toilets. What do you think? 216 00:12:58,280 --> 00:12:59,280 He works hard. 217 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:03,720 Long hours. You get the best money from emergency plumbing out of hours. 218 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:04,800 Is he funny? 219 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:06,360 Sometimes. 220 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:07,440 Loving? 221 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:09,920 - No, that's weird. - Angry? 222 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:11,840 I suppose. 223 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:13,280 How angry does he get? 224 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:14,960 He's never hit me. 225 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:16,360 Okay, go on. 226 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:18,280 Go on what? 227 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:21,520 - Is that what this is about? - Why do you call him angry? 228 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:24,080 He just gets mad. We all do. 229 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:27,760 Okay. That's okay. He's just angry in a normal way. 230 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:35,120 Well, he's pulled a shed down once when he was in a proper rager, but… 231 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:37,840 …that's as bad as it gets. 232 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:39,200 Were you frightened? 233 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:43,720 No, I… I thought it was quite funny at the time. 234 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:47,480 Lisa did too. Then Mum sent us upstairs. 235 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:50,920 He's not like that most of the time. 236 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:53,080 Hardly ever. 237 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:56,280 What does he do when he's not working? 238 00:13:58,120 --> 00:13:59,880 It just feels like you're testing him. 239 00:13:59,960 --> 00:14:02,520 No, I'm just interested in your view of him. 240 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:06,200 He's a big presence in your life. He was your appropriate adult. 241 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:08,680 Yeah, 'cause… he doesn't judge. 242 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:11,320 He… He's a kind person. 243 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:13,080 That's good to know. 244 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:16,560 So, what does he do when he's not working? 245 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:20,920 He basically likes all sport. 246 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,000 My mum always said if he'd watch lawn bowls, he'd make it fun. 247 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:26,960 Would you watch lawn bowls with him? 248 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:30,080 No, it's… it's not for me. 249 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:31,400 Are you not into sport? 250 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:33,440 - No. - None of it? 251 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:39,440 Yeah, I'm… I'm not good at much, but… I'm really good at getting out of PE. 252 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:41,280 How do you do that, then? 253 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:45,440 Um, headaches. Hurt my leg. 254 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:46,960 Funny tummy. 255 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:50,960 "Sir, I feel dizzy. Can I sit down?" That sort of thing. 256 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:53,120 What did… does your dad make of that? 257 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:56,200 He, um… He didn't… 258 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:59,040 He doesn't… He doesn't know. 259 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:04,120 He knew I wasn't sporty or anything like that. 260 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:10,640 I… I used to, uh… He used to take me to football. 261 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:12,640 This… 262 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:17,120 This football thing on… on Saturdays. 263 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:19,720 And he'd, um… 264 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:26,040 He'd cheer me on and everything, but… 265 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:31,720 But when I… I'd fuck up, he'd just… 266 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:49,520 He'd… He'd just look away. 267 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:53,440 Pretend he didn't see? 268 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:57,760 Maybe, or… 269 00:15:59,960 --> 00:16:03,200 Maybe he just didn't want me to see him looking… 270 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:05,600 …sorry. 271 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:07,400 Sorry? 272 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:10,320 I dunno. 273 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:12,520 Ashamed. 274 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:19,240 How did you feel when you saw that shame? 275 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:23,720 - You're supposed to say he wasn't. - Am I? 276 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:25,240 Yeah. 277 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:28,520 You're supposed to say, "Oh, bet he wasn't ashamed." 278 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:30,080 "Bet you just thought that, Jamie." 279 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:33,960 Or, "Is that what you really think? He wouldn't be ashamed, not of his kid." 280 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:37,200 - Have other people said that to you? - It's just the right thing to say. 281 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:38,480 Isn't it lying? 282 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:39,560 No. 283 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:42,200 I don't know. I don't like lying. 284 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:53,600 I wasn't into school sports either. 285 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:59,200 Yeah, well, you were good at other stuff, though, weren't ya? 286 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:01,000 Why do you think that? 287 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:04,360 You look like you were, and you're… 288 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:06,080 And you're clever, so… 289 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:09,240 Did you not think you were very good at anything else? 290 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:13,280 No. I… I didn't care I wasn't. 291 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:16,120 It must be hard to feel that way. 292 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:17,640 No. 293 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:20,520 I think most people think like that. 294 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:23,040 Most people think they're bad at everything? 295 00:17:23,120 --> 00:17:24,480 Most people are. 296 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:26,760 Does your sister feel like that? 297 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:28,480 No. 298 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:30,080 Lisa's clever. 299 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:31,760 Your dad? 300 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:34,640 I don't know. 301 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:37,160 My… My mum does, though. 302 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:39,760 Your mum thinks she's bad at everything? 303 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:42,480 She can cook a roast, but… 304 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:44,680 I mean, you'd have to ask her. 305 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:47,600 Have you met them yet? 306 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:49,240 - Your family? - Yeah. 307 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:51,440 I've… spoken to your dad on the phone. 308 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:54,000 - Yeah? - Yes. As part of my assessment. 309 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:55,200 How is he? 310 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:58,320 He's okay. He's sad you're here. I can't say more than that. 311 00:18:05,120 --> 00:18:06,560 Well, it… it's wrong… 312 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:08,640 …that I'm in here. 313 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:14,200 Can I ask you a question? 314 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:15,920 Of course you can. 315 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:20,600 - Can you get me out of this place? - I'm afraid I'm of no use to you there. 316 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:23,240 Why couldn't they put me in a proper prison? 317 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:25,880 - A better facility wasn't available. - Putting me in a madhouse? 318 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:28,400 - It's a secure training center. - Training? 319 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:31,080 What are they training us for? 320 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:33,120 The other boys just scream all the time. 321 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:35,960 They rock backwards and forwards, and they shout at Coronation Street. 322 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:37,560 All the way through Corrie. 323 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:41,040 One kid goes nuts every time he sees Steve McDonald. It's mad in here. 324 00:18:41,120 --> 00:18:44,440 - This was the best place for you. - Ryan gets to stay home until his trial. 325 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:46,520 Ryan isn't accused of such a serious crime. 326 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,240 Accused. It's all accused. 327 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:52,280 If I did it, if I hurt her, then I'd get it, but I didn't, so… 328 00:18:52,360 --> 00:18:56,040 - As far as I understand it… - Am I getting moved for the trial? 329 00:18:56,120 --> 00:18:57,480 Nothing has been decided yet. 330 00:18:57,560 --> 00:18:59,960 Do you know where it's gonna be? London or local? 331 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,120 You need to sit down, Jamie. If you don't sit down, I have… 332 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:05,280 You don't know, or you just won't tell me? 333 00:19:05,360 --> 00:19:07,680 Nothing's been decided yet. You need to sit down! 334 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:08,665 I don't want to sit! 335 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:10,720 If you don't sit, I have to stop this discussion. 336 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:12,680 - Maybe I want you to! - Do you? 337 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:15,880 It'd piss you off. You'd have to go home and then come back again. 338 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:17,560 Jamie, if you do not sit… 339 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:19,960 I don't fucking wanna sit down! 340 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:23,080 You do not tell me when to sit down! 341 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:25,480 You do not control what I fucking… 342 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:27,840 Look at me now! 343 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:30,800 You do not control what I do in my life! 344 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:33,000 Get that in that fucking little head of yours! 345 00:19:34,360 --> 00:19:35,520 Fucking hell! 346 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:37,040 Is everything okay? 347 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:43,160 - There isn't a problem. - Fuck. 348 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:45,880 Jamie. 349 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,480 I shouted. I'm sorry. 350 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:53,800 - Do you want him taken out? - No. 351 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:56,400 I'll get a cup of tea, though, if that's okay. 352 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:00,040 Can I have another hot chocolate, please? 353 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:03,120 - Sure. - You don't have to. 354 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:04,200 Sure. 355 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:44,400 Causing trouble, is he? 356 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:51,840 Uh, could I look in the room? 357 00:20:52,360 --> 00:20:54,600 - There's no audio. - That's fine. Can I look? 358 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:58,720 Of course. Mi casa is your casa. Or whatever they say. 359 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:06,160 - After you. - Thank you. 360 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:22,080 What are you seeing? 361 00:21:24,120 --> 00:21:28,080 I mean, what is it you're looking for? Is it body language stuff? 362 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:32,760 It's just, I'm reading a book on that at the moment. 363 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:38,640 My sister gave it to me. 364 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:42,160 You see, 365 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:44,840 people hide. 366 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:51,120 I know I don't need to tell you this, but… they hide so much. 367 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,120 Maybe they tell the truth with their bodies, you know? 368 00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:59,280 - Faces… - Yes, maybe. 369 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:04,640 I couldn't do what you do. 370 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:07,040 I'm sure I couldn't do what you do. 371 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:09,040 Do you want to job swap? 372 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:10,880 What's your hours? 373 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:13,360 What's your wages? 374 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:17,400 - What's your holiday allowance? - No. I like my job most of the time. 375 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,480 Well… I hate mine. 376 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:24,960 So you're probably best off. 377 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:28,440 Right. 378 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:30,240 That's all I needed. 379 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:31,760 Dib dib dib. 380 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:34,160 - Pleased to help. - Thank you. 381 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:36,080 Thanks. 382 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:53,840 Would you be comfortable with me staying? 383 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:55,960 No, I wouldn't like that at all. 384 00:22:56,040 --> 00:23:00,720 Right, Jamie. I'm not a police officer. I'm not here to elicit a confession. 385 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:04,960 I'm just here to understand. I know you think I'm trying to trick you. 386 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:06,800 I said… I said that ages ago. 387 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:10,440 I am just here to get an understanding of your understanding. 388 00:23:13,120 --> 00:23:15,000 And I understand 389 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:18,960 that you need to have an understanding of my understanding. 390 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:21,840 Go on. 391 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:23,920 Ask your questions. 392 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:26,240 I'm better now. 393 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:32,600 Okay. Uh… 394 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:41,800 Well, I suppose the other thing I think of in relation to the word "masculinity" 395 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,960 would be how masculine men feel about women. 396 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,560 - We're back on that, are we? - Yes. Is that okay? 397 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:51,480 Uh, yeah. 398 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:55,680 You need to have an understanding of my understanding of women. 399 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:58,160 - I forgot your hot chocolate. - It's fine. 400 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,240 - I'll get it. - No, just… sit down, please. 401 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:05,720 It's fine. I don't deserve it. 402 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:06,920 I shouted. 403 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:11,640 Ask your questions about men, women, whatever. 404 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,280 Well, you must have views on men and women. 405 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:19,080 How does your dad treat your mum? 406 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,400 - Are you trying to get at my dad again? - No, not get at him. 407 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:25,680 Dad's actually nice to Mum. 408 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:27,240 You did say he tore down a shed. 409 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:30,320 Yeah, he just gets angry with himself, but he's never hit her. 410 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:32,000 Does he speak to other women? 411 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:34,440 - What? - Is he friendly with other women? 412 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,120 What? No. He loves my mum. 413 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:39,800 No, I'm asking whether any of his friends are women. 414 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,400 No, his mates are his mates. 415 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:44,520 And they're men? 416 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:46,840 Is that wrong? What does that mean? 417 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:48,960 No. No, that's not wrong. 418 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:52,480 I thought we'd done talking about my dad. 419 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,120 - Jamie, I'm just trying to understand… - Understand. 420 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,680 I know, but… none of this is nothing to do with him. 421 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:01,560 Okay, that's fine. 422 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,640 - Do you have any mates who are women? - No. 423 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,280 Like your dad, your mates are male? 424 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:13,440 The other shrink asks more normal questions, you know? 425 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:15,040 - Okay. - Wanna know what he asks? 426 00:25:15,120 --> 00:25:17,280 - I can't know. - I'm just saying. 427 00:25:17,360 --> 00:25:20,240 I can't know, Jamie. My conclusions have to be independent. 428 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,360 All right, okay. I won't say anything. 429 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:25,560 What do you think about women? 430 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:27,640 I like them. 431 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,440 But you're not, like you say, particularly friends with them? 432 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:32,080 I'm not a twat, though. 433 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,080 - Are you attracted to women? - Yeah, I'm not gay. 434 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:38,240 We've established you don't have a girlfriend. 435 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,560 - Yeah. - But I don't think I asked before. 436 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:42,200 Would you like a girlfriend? 437 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:43,480 Yeah, who doesn't? 438 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,400 If you had a girlfriend, what would you do with her? 439 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:47,920 What does that mean? 440 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,600 Well, would you take her out? If you did, where would you take her? 441 00:25:54,360 --> 00:25:55,640 The cinema. 442 00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:58,480 To see what kind of film? 443 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:02,560 A horror. 444 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:04,760 Fifteen certificate? 445 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:09,120 Mm. Yeah, they're pretty slack. You can get in. 446 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:11,840 And after the cinema, would you 447 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:14,800 take her for a walk, take her straight home? 448 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:15,880 No. 449 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:17,840 Not straight home. 450 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:20,560 Would you want to kiss her? 451 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:25,560 - Are you allowed to ask these questions? - What, you don't discuss this in PSHE? 452 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:29,640 What do you think is the normal amount 453 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:33,120 someone your age would do sexually with a girl or boy? 454 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,240 - I told you, I'm not gay. - I wasn't suggesting that you were. 455 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,200 - You really want me to answer? - Yes, if you can. 456 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,280 I don't know. Touching. Kissing. 457 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:47,600 Well, what do you mean by touching? 458 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:51,600 Touching her… Touching her bits. 459 00:26:52,120 --> 00:26:53,360 Her chest? 460 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:55,200 - Yeah. - Her backside? 461 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:57,240 - Yeah. - Her vulva? 462 00:26:58,080 --> 00:26:59,160 Her vagina? 463 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:01,040 I don't know, maybe. 464 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:03,240 - Probably not? - Maybe. 465 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,160 Are you sure you're allowed to ask these questions? 466 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:11,520 So, you think it's normal for a 13-year-old heterosexual boy 467 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,000 to have engaged in touching of a girl's chest and her backside? 468 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,000 Above or below clothes? 469 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,520 Below… maybe. 470 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,160 Above, mostly. 471 00:27:26,360 --> 00:27:29,320 I've actually done all that. Kissing and touching. 472 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:31,320 Okay. 473 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,560 And I've had two girls show me their tits. Chest. 474 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:37,760 It's okay. You don't have to use my language. 475 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:40,000 And I touched them, so… 476 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:42,920 Okay. 477 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,080 And one of them touched my, uh… my… my knob 478 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:49,880 through my trousers. 479 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:52,200 Okay. 480 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:55,480 And I think she liked it. 481 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:56,560 And you liked it? 482 00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:58,320 Of course. 483 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:05,160 Not really. 484 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:07,520 You didn't like it? 485 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:11,680 I dunno. 486 00:28:14,120 --> 00:28:16,680 There's no right or wrong answer in this room, Jamie. 487 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,360 You do know that. It's just your best attempt at the truth. 488 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:25,960 Yeah. 489 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:28,760 That… That didn't happen. 490 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,800 - You weren't touched on your trousers? - No, I wasn't. 491 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,920 And did two girls go topless with you? 492 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:39,000 No, but… 493 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,640 - I've seen photos, though. - You've seen porn photos? 494 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:45,720 No, not porn. 495 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:47,880 Everyone sees porn. 496 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,520 Just these two girls in my year that I knew. Well, know. 497 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,880 You saw photos of two girls in your year topless? 498 00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:58,400 Yeah. 499 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,400 Would they be happy you saw those photos? 500 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:03,240 Everyone else did. 501 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:11,960 Was Katie one of those two girls? 502 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:15,680 What? 503 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,240 - How do you know that? - How did it feel… 504 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,200 - No. How did you guess that? - I didn't guess it. I asked it. 505 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,400 And now I'd like to know what it felt like to see that. 506 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,640 - You're asking whether I got a hard-on? - I'm asking how it felt. 507 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,960 I… I liked it. Are we allowed to talk like this? 508 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,200 How does it make you feel, looking at naked pictures of people? 509 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:35,185 How do you think? 510 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:36,640 How does it make you feel, 511 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,040 looking at naked pictures of people you know? 512 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:40,720 I dunno. Good. 513 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:42,225 Powerful? 514 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,160 - Do you feel like it gives you a power? - No. 515 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:45,840 It's just weird. 516 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:49,680 Were you attracted to Katie? 517 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:53,600 She wasn't my type. 518 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:55,520 So you weren't? 519 00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,160 She was quite… 520 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:00,960 …no offense, but flat, you know? 521 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:03,560 Right. 522 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,560 Well, everyone else said it… who saw it. That's not just me. 523 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,440 The picture got passed around the school. Snapchat, you know. 524 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:16,080 It was just her… 525 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:18,280 …top half. 526 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:20,520 Not, uh, anything else. 527 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:23,960 She sent it to Fidget, and then he sent it on. 528 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:26,560 Why did she send it to Fidget? 529 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:28,920 I dunno. She fancied him. 530 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:31,280 So she was trying to attract him? 531 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:33,960 I think he asked her. 532 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:36,560 He's not gonna get any more pictures, though, is he? 533 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:38,800 No. She's dead. 534 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:46,040 No, I… 535 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:47,640 I didn't mean from her. 536 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:50,960 I meant from other girls. 537 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:53,240 No one'll send him pictures 538 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:57,040 because he wasn't careful with the one he got. 539 00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:58,280 The twat. 540 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,160 So you think he should have collected more pictures from more girls 541 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,200 before he shared them with other boys? 542 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,640 Yeah. I dunno. 543 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,360 Why… Why did you say "She's dead" like that? 544 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:22,840 Because she is. 545 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:35,600 Jamie, I asked whether you were attracted to women. 546 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:37,760 Do you think women are attracted to you? 547 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:41,840 What sort of question's that? 548 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,240 Well, what do you think? Do you think girls are attracted to you? 549 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:48,160 No. 550 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:50,800 Of course not. 551 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:53,080 Why, "of course not"? 552 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,680 Because I'm… I… I'm ugly. 553 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:02,800 How does that make you feel? 554 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,720 - Aren't you supposed to say I'm not ugly? - What I think isn't important. 555 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:09,720 You don't say the things normal people say. 556 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:11,440 How would you feel if I did? 557 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:13,680 I don't know why you don't say things normal people say. 558 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,680 I should have contradicted you when you said your dad was ashamed, 559 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:20,640 and you think I should contradict you now when you tell me you think yourself ugly? 560 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:22,600 I dunno. 561 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,480 I'm interested in the fact that you think you're ugly, Jamie. 562 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:29,280 Yeah, I'm… 563 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:31,825 I'm fascinating. 564 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:32,880 I'm interested in it 565 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,960 because what you think is more important to me than what is true, okay? 566 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,400 So, how do you feel about being ugly? 567 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:47,080 Well, how would you feel? 568 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:49,480 You don't know. 569 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,160 - You're not. You're dead pretty. - This isn't about me, Jamie. 570 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,560 - You don't think you're pretty? - I'm not the interesting person. 571 00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:58,720 You don't think you're pretty? You do think I'm ugly? 572 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,320 I haven't passed judgement on either of those things. For very good reason. 573 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:04,560 - "For very good reason." - I want to understand you. 574 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,360 To understand my understanding of my understanding of my understanding. 575 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:08,440 Yes. 576 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:11,640 - The other bloke is much more easy. - Okay. 577 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:13,720 Him checking whether I understand was much easier. 578 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,680 - Whether I understand what I did. - They need two opinions for a reason. 579 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:20,080 Look, no, fuck off! I didn't fucking say that! 580 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:21,880 You're fucking putting words in me mouth! 581 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,360 - It's a fucking trap in here! You are… - Hey! Jamie! 582 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:37,760 What was that? 583 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:39,960 Hey? 584 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:41,880 What the fuck was that? 585 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,200 Signaling him away like a fucking queen, yeah? 586 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:03,280 I need you to sit down. 587 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:20,320 Fuck. 588 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:22,600 Fuck. 589 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:25,400 Fuck. 590 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:30,720 Fuck's sake. 591 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:34,480 - Are you going to sit down? - Fuck off! 592 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:38,880 For fuck's sake. 593 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:42,840 Fuck. Fuck. 594 00:34:53,720 --> 00:34:54,720 Are you done? 595 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:04,360 Fine. 596 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:09,280 I will fucking sit down. 597 00:35:12,720 --> 00:35:13,720 You happy now? 598 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:18,560 Hey? 599 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:23,720 Well, are you going now? 600 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:26,920 Are you going? 601 00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:29,360 Would you like me to? 602 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:32,280 It's not up to me, is it? 603 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:35,720 If you want me to go, Jamie, I can go. 604 00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:01,600 You said in one of our previous sessions that you had friends, Tommy and Ryan. 605 00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:05,520 But that you wouldn't consider yourself popular. 606 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:09,880 Yeah. 607 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,280 You said you were bullied. The three of you were bullied. 608 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:15,920 People like you love talking about bullying. 609 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:17,800 You said Tommy was called Round Pounds 610 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,240 because his mum did her shopping at Poundland. 611 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:21,720 Yeah, but she doesn't. 612 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:23,280 And Ryan was called dumb. 613 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:24,600 Ryan is dumb. 614 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:26,720 That one was sort of true. 615 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,760 - The three of you felt ostracized. - Big words coming out now. 616 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:31,960 You said sometimes this would get physical. 617 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,240 People would spit on you from classroom windows. 618 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:36,120 You'd be tripped up and pushed. 619 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:41,760 Yeah. 620 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:46,600 - You were called names, physically abused. - No. I was just tripped up and spat on. 621 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,480 My question, Jamie, is why do you have an Instagram account? 622 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:51,000 What? 623 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:53,120 - I… I need one. - Why? 624 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:55,880 To look at other people's accounts. 625 00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:58,040 You can't if you haven't got one. 626 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:03,240 Right. And you follow lots of women on Instagram. Models. 627 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:05,040 Yeah. 628 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,360 You don't need to put photos up, though. Why do you? 629 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:10,480 Put photos up of yourself, I mean? 630 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:13,480 I dunno. Am I not allowed? 631 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:15,320 Yeah. 632 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:20,520 Is it to prove bullies wrong by showing the fun you have with Tommy and Ryan? 633 00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:21,585 What? No. 634 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:23,520 To show the fun you have with your family? 635 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:25,520 No way I'm putting anything up of them. 636 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,760 If you've seen that, it's because my sister tagged me. 637 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,560 Because you think someone might like one of your photos? 638 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,600 You might get into a conversation, make a new friend, meet a girl? 639 00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:36,640 What? No. What you on about? 640 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:46,400 Katie commented on your photos on a number of different occasions. 641 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:48,600 Uh, yeah. 642 00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:56,160 What are you doing? 643 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,000 - What… What's this? - Budge up. 644 00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:10,760 She wrote this. 645 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,320 No. Are… Are you allowed to ask these questions? 646 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:17,840 - Has Dillon passed these questions fit? - Yes. 647 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:23,960 He has. I'm allowed to ask about intimacies, Jamie. 648 00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,080 But if this makes you uncomfortable or you have any questions, 649 00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:31,320 there are people in this facility that can help you. Okay? 650 00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:39,640 Katie wrote this on your Facebook feed. 651 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:41,640 Facebook? 652 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:44,200 Instagram. 653 00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:47,040 Are you all right? 654 00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:49,240 You look a bit red. 655 00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:51,520 Did I scare you when I shouted? 656 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:56,240 - She wrote this on your Instagram. - I mean, I'm only 13. 657 00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:58,760 I don't think I look that scary. 658 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,720 - Could you tell me what these emojis are? - How embarrassing is that? 659 00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:09,720 Getting scared of a 13-year-old. 660 00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:12,240 Wow. 661 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:15,520 What do these emojis mean, Jamie? 662 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:23,840 What do the kidney beans mean? They're kidney beans, right? 663 00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:30,520 She's pretending like I'm part of one of those truth groups. 664 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:32,680 What truth groups? 665 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:37,760 The ones that say that women don't want us and don't care. 666 00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:41,200 - Are you part of those? - No. 667 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:42,760 But you know what they say? 668 00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:45,400 Yeah, 'cause everyone kept on going on about it. 669 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:49,360 Incel stuff. So I had a look, but I didn't like it. 670 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,920 And was you being an incel what she was saying with all of these? 671 00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:58,040 Yeah. 672 00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:00,200 Could you explain them all? 673 00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:13,000 Uh… want love, won't get it. 674 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:16,600 My throat's killing. 675 00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:19,360 Uh, red pill, exploding. 676 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:21,560 That's the same as the red pill. 677 00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:24,440 And then that's an 80-20 thing. 678 00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:26,960 What's an 80-20 thing? 679 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:33,000 Where 80% of women are attracted to 20% of men. 680 00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:37,680 But I do think they're right about that, though. 681 00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:44,440 And lots of people liked her comments quite a lot. 682 00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:48,560 Yeah, they thought it was funny. 683 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:52,040 You must have found that quite cruel. 684 00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:55,480 I suppose. 685 00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:57,440 Did she do this to anyone else? 686 00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,160 - No. - Well, why did she do it to you? 687 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:05,800 Because… Because I'm ugly. 688 00:41:06,720 --> 00:41:10,680 - You think that's why she did it to you? - Well, I'm the ugliest, I suppose, so… 689 00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:13,800 Did you ever call her on it? 690 00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:15,920 - Yeah. - What did you say? 691 00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:21,200 I don't know. "I'm not what you say I am," or… 692 00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:22,600 And what did she say? 693 00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:27,520 She just… 694 00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:32,280 She just smiled and said, "Okay," and walked away. 695 00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:35,440 And you never thought to tell anyone? 696 00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:38,120 - It's a bit late for that now. - That just must have hurt. 697 00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:39,280 I didn't kill her. 698 00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:44,320 You think I did because you've seen the video. You can't trust videos anymore. 699 00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:45,560 It's all fake news. 700 00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:47,720 - I'm not here to judge. - I didn't kill her. 701 00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:50,520 She was a bitch. Even you can see that. 702 00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:52,640 I should've killed her, but I didn't. I just… 703 00:41:54,720 --> 00:41:55,720 All… All I did… 704 00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:00,440 All I did was… 705 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:07,560 Look at ya. 706 00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,240 All hopeful, like I'm gonna say something important. 707 00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:16,640 All I did… 708 00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:20,960 I did ask her out… after the photo. 709 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,320 I went round and said I was sorry that they'd done that to her. 710 00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:27,040 Showing everyone her tits. Her chest. 711 00:42:27,720 --> 00:42:30,000 And I wanted to know if she'd come to the fair with me. 712 00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:35,760 You know, I just thought she might be weak, or that… 713 00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:38,200 I just thought she might be weak, so… 714 00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:43,200 'Cause everyone was calling her slag, 715 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:45,200 you know, or flat or whatever, 716 00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:47,720 so I thought when she was, like, that, weak, 717 00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:50,800 she might… she might like me. 718 00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:55,480 It's clever, don't you think? 719 00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:58,040 To ask her out when everyone else didn't like her? 720 00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:01,320 Well, I went round and said I was sorry and everything. 721 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:03,080 That Fidget was a wanker. 722 00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:06,160 And I said I'd take her to the fair if she liked. 723 00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:10,920 Her weakness made her more gettable, was your theory? 724 00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:13,960 Mm-hmm. Yeah. 725 00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:18,920 I thought you said you didn't like her. 726 00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:23,800 Uh, she's flat. That's a fact. But I didn't mind that. That's okay. 727 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:27,840 I wore my best tracksuit I could find, and… 728 00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:33,000 I don't even know why I'm telling you all this, but I just said, 729 00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:34,720 "You wanna come to the fair?" 730 00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:36,040 And what did she say? 731 00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:41,480 She just… 732 00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:45,880 She just laughed and said, "Oh, I'm not that desperate." 733 00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:49,680 And the emoji messages came after that? 734 00:43:51,720 --> 00:43:52,720 Uh, yeah. 735 00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:57,160 She was, let's say, attacking you for presuming you could ask her out? 736 00:43:57,240 --> 00:43:59,400 - Your words. - You think they're unfair? 737 00:43:59,960 --> 00:44:03,560 You think she's a bitch, right? 738 00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:05,120 Doing all that. 739 00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:07,760 You think she's a bullying bitch. 740 00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:13,480 She was a bullying bitch, right? 741 00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:15,960 But that's the thing, you see? 742 00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:18,160 That night, I didn't touch her. 743 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:21,920 I could've touched her, but I didn't. I just… 744 00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:25,520 I had a knife. She was scared. But I didn't do that. 745 00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:31,680 I could have touched any part of her body. I really wanted to, but I didn't. I just… 746 00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:35,960 Most boys would've touched her. 747 00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:41,680 So that makes me better. 748 00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:47,400 Don't you think? 749 00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:26,920 I didn't… I didn't mean any of that. I'm just tired. 750 00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:30,560 I'm talking too much. I'm tired. I'm just… 751 00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:33,000 I'm so, so tired. 752 00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:36,840 I didn't kill her. 753 00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:39,240 Jamie, do you understand what death is? 754 00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:42,400 - What? - Do you understand what death is? 755 00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:44,480 Yeah. 756 00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:47,040 You understand that Katie's gone and she can't come back? 757 00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:48,240 I didn't do it. 758 00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:50,800 That whatever claims you make as to her character… 759 00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:54,160 - I didn't mean she was a bitch. - Whatever claims you make, she's gone. 760 00:45:55,240 --> 00:45:56,480 That whoever did kill her, 761 00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:59,200 they extinguished the possibility of her future life. 762 00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:04,960 I didn't mean to be mean about her. She just did… 763 00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:08,320 - Jamie, listen. Do you understand? - She just didn't like me. 764 00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:12,000 Yeah, I'm not dumb. 765 00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:16,360 - Do you understand that murder is a crime? - Yeah. 766 00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:20,280 You understand that if you're found guilty, you'll be held in detention? 767 00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:23,200 - Who doesn't know that? - Understand who will make the decision? 768 00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:26,320 - Judge. Jury. - Okay. 769 00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:35,600 Jamie, this is our last session. 770 00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:37,825 What? 771 00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:39,800 - What I would encourage you to… - No. Why? 772 00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:42,680 Take advantage of any mental health services that are offered. 773 00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:44,640 - No. Why? - I think you'll benefit. 774 00:46:44,720 --> 00:46:47,080 - No, I won't. - Well, that's just what I think. 775 00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:49,600 And then you come back. You see me? 776 00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:51,800 Unfortunately, I'm needed elsewhere. 777 00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:57,400 - It's just fucking done, is it? All of it? - I hope you take what I said seriously. 778 00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:00,560 - Thanks for your time. I'll ask Frank… - Thanks for my time? 779 00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:04,240 - Frank! I'm grateful that you've spoken… - You think I'm being honest? 780 00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:07,360 - Are you gonna tell the judge? - I think you've spoken with honesty. 781 00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:09,560 But all I'm advising the judge on is your understanding. 782 00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:12,720 My understanding, yes. 783 00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:16,680 - It doesn't seem like a proper goodbye. - It is. 784 00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:18,840 - It doesn't seem like one. - That's enough. 785 00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:20,320 No, we haven't finished. 786 00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:22,600 - We have. Thank you, Frank. - No, no! 787 00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:24,120 Can I ask you something? 788 00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:25,840 Yes. 789 00:47:28,720 --> 00:47:31,120 Do you like me? 790 00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:45,240 - I was here as a professional, Jamie. - Don't you think like that, then? 791 00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:48,280 - My job was to assess you. - Because I like you. 792 00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:50,800 Not like that. Not fancying you. Just as a person. 793 00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:53,640 - Okay, son, come on. - No, don't you even like me a bit? 794 00:47:53,720 --> 00:47:55,520 What did you think about me, then? 795 00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:58,640 - Decide, come on! - This was really useful. 796 00:47:58,720 --> 00:48:00,920 Don't you go fucking telling them what I did! 797 00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:02,480 - Don't you dare! - Whoa, come on. 798 00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:05,760 Don't you go fucking… Get the fuck off me! Don't you dare! 799 00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:07,080 - Hey! - Fuck! 800 00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:09,800 - Come on. Jamie, man, please. - Don't you even like me a bit? 801 00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:10,960 Okay? Jamie, come on. 802 00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:13,040 - What did you think about me, then? - Okay. 803 00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:14,760 Just tell my dad I'm all right! 804 00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:18,160 - Tell him that I'm okay! - Jamie, you're hurting yourself. 805 00:48:18,240 --> 00:48:20,480 - Tell him that I'm all right! - Calm down. 806 00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:21,800 Tell him I'm all right! 807 00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:24,640 Tell him I'm okay, please! 808 00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:39,360 Oh God.