1 00:00:16,463 --> 00:00:18,403 Previously on The Hack... 2 00:00:18,503 --> 00:00:20,963 I'm friends with Clare Rewcastle Brown, 3 00:00:21,063 --> 00:00:25,323 the journalist and sister in law of Gordon Brown. He's leaning in. 4 00:00:25,423 --> 00:00:28,483 Murdoch's ambition is limitless, but he's overstepped here. 5 00:00:28,583 --> 00:00:30,923 Part of a new operation, Operation Weeting. 6 00:00:31,023 --> 00:00:34,043 We're investigating allegations of phone hacking. 7 00:00:34,143 --> 00:00:37,562 A contact of mine in the force has been put on it. He's feeding me. 8 00:00:37,662 --> 00:00:42,242 - This felony alert will kill you. - This could get you in trouble. 9 00:00:42,342 --> 00:00:44,922 - Hello. - Dave, it's Mike at The Sun. 10 00:00:45,022 --> 00:00:47,682 Give Panorama Mike Sullivan, Nick Davies, 11 00:00:47,782 --> 00:00:51,482 anything about our cases, and you'll be strung up for all to see. 12 00:00:51,582 --> 00:00:55,402 I was in the database. News of the World, April 14th, 2002. 13 00:00:55,502 --> 00:00:57,442 - Milly Dowler. - Jingle says 14 00:00:57,542 --> 00:00:59,562 there is a page on Dowler in Marquez's notebooks. 15 00:00:59,662 --> 00:01:02,042 The News of the World will not be forgiven for this. 16 00:01:02,142 --> 00:01:05,602 I was being drawn to stories again and again with the same theme. 17 00:01:05,702 --> 00:01:09,121 A deep seated urge to hit back at anybody at all 18 00:01:09,221 --> 00:01:11,741 who takes power and abuses it. 19 00:01:14,141 --> 00:01:16,681 Our guest now joining us from the newsroom of The Guardian 20 00:01:16,781 --> 00:01:19,241 is Nick Davies, award winning journalist 21 00:01:19,341 --> 00:01:21,401 who has brought phone hacking into the light. 22 00:01:21,501 --> 00:01:24,801 - Hi. - Now, Nick Davies. 23 00:01:24,901 --> 00:01:28,401 Could you have predicted the furore 24 00:01:28,501 --> 00:01:30,681 that the Milly Dowler case seems to have caused? 25 00:01:30,781 --> 00:01:34,521 Uh, predicted? No. But I do think it speaks well 26 00:01:34,621 --> 00:01:36,681 for the British public, for the world public, 27 00:01:36,781 --> 00:01:38,781 that a furore has been provoked. 28 00:01:40,101 --> 00:01:42,841 You have Rupert Murdoch firmly on the ropes. 29 00:01:42,941 --> 00:01:46,040 I have to say I'm horrified that they closed the News of the World. 30 00:01:46,140 --> 00:01:48,560 Good journalists have lost their jobs. 31 00:01:48,660 --> 00:01:52,480 I believe this was a, a cynical move on Murdoch's part 32 00:01:52,580 --> 00:01:54,720 to help aid his capture of BSkyB. 33 00:01:54,820 --> 00:01:57,080 What do you think it is about the Milly Dowler case 34 00:01:57,180 --> 00:01:58,600 that has had such an impact? 35 00:01:58,700 --> 00:02:00,640 Well, what we discovered was that 36 00:02:00,740 --> 00:02:03,440 during the period of her disappearance, 37 00:02:03,540 --> 00:02:05,960 News of the World were using a private investigator 38 00:02:06,060 --> 00:02:08,000 to listen to her voicemails, 39 00:02:08,100 --> 00:02:10,320 so that, in itself, is horrid, deeply personal stuff. 40 00:02:10,420 --> 00:02:12,360 Friends and family still thought 41 00:02:12,460 --> 00:02:14,960 she may have run away and were imploring her to come home. 42 00:02:15,060 --> 00:02:17,000 The voicemail filled up, 43 00:02:17,100 --> 00:02:19,519 which is why they deleted the messages. 44 00:02:19,619 --> 00:02:22,119 Now, friends and family, who had previously heard 45 00:02:22,219 --> 00:02:25,439 the message voicemail full was surprised by this. 46 00:02:25,539 --> 00:02:28,559 And the presumption became that Milly was still alive. 47 00:02:28,659 --> 00:02:32,279 I guess we all wanna know whether Rupert Murdoch will feature 48 00:02:32,379 --> 00:02:34,319 in front of your Leveson inquiry and what... 49 00:02:34,419 --> 00:02:36,599 Ah, well, before Leveson, actually, 50 00:02:36,699 --> 00:02:38,639 Rupert Murdoch is due to speak 51 00:02:38,739 --> 00:02:40,799 at the House of Commons Media Select Committee. 52 00:02:40,899 --> 00:02:43,199 We want to get answers from him as to what he knew 53 00:02:43,299 --> 00:02:46,799 about phone hacking, widespread practice at his newspaper 54 00:02:46,899 --> 00:02:50,519 when he knew about it, and why he didn't act. 55 00:02:50,619 --> 00:02:53,198 Nick Davies, thank you for joining us. 56 00:02:53,298 --> 00:02:55,438 Thank you for having me. 57 00:03:01,258 --> 00:03:03,478 Whether Rupert bails on us, I don't know. 58 00:03:03,578 --> 00:03:06,038 - Well, you could compel him. - The thing you need to ask is, 59 00:03:06,138 --> 00:03:08,558 can you truly compel Murdoch to do anything? 60 00:03:08,658 --> 00:03:10,598 Are we singing "Happy Birthday"? 61 00:03:10,698 --> 00:03:13,278 - Who gets to ask the first question? - Well, I do, 62 00:03:13,378 --> 00:03:16,198 though Nick is intent on writing it for me. 63 00:03:16,298 --> 00:03:19,078 Uh, I think we should sing. 64 00:03:19,178 --> 00:03:22,878 - "Happy Birthday" is a terrible song. - Nick thinks it's fascistic. 65 00:03:22,978 --> 00:03:24,558 It is culturally fascistic, 66 00:03:24,658 --> 00:03:26,838 everyone has to sing the same song on their bloody birthday. 67 00:03:26,938 --> 00:03:29,397 - Where's the individuality... - Well, we could sing, um... 68 00:03:29,497 --> 00:03:32,517 Ah... What's the one where we count the candles on the birthday cake? 69 00:03:32,617 --> 00:03:34,997 - Have we the energy? - Well, speech. 70 00:03:35,097 --> 00:03:38,117 - At least we deserve a speech. - Yes, yes. On your feet. 71 00:03:38,217 --> 00:03:40,317 Uh, no, but okay. 72 00:03:40,417 --> 00:03:42,597 I would like to thank you all for coming. 73 00:03:42,697 --> 00:03:44,837 And I would like to remind you... 74 00:03:44,937 --> 00:03:46,877 we have work to do. The Select Committee... 75 00:03:46,977 --> 00:03:48,997 Select Committee is our chance 76 00:03:49,097 --> 00:03:51,957 - with Murdoch on the stand... - And I won't let you down. 77 00:03:52,057 --> 00:03:54,717 - No, no, no, Tom, I'm not saying... - Maybe I should have let you retire. 78 00:03:54,817 --> 00:03:56,797 - You were going to retire? - Move to Belgium. 79 00:03:56,897 --> 00:03:59,437 - Ah, chocolate. - And then with Leveson 80 00:03:59,537 --> 00:04:03,356 - making sure we're fully prepared. - Nick, Nick. Today, we celebrate. 81 00:04:03,456 --> 00:04:06,476 A prep session would've been much more preferable to a birthday. 82 00:04:06,576 --> 00:04:08,516 Not only is the song fascistic, 83 00:04:08,616 --> 00:04:10,756 but Nick thinks birthdays are narcissistic. 84 00:04:10,856 --> 00:04:13,236 - He likes to work through. - How nice then that 85 00:04:13,336 --> 00:04:15,916 none of his friends came, and just the people he works with. 86 00:04:16,016 --> 00:04:18,676 Now you're treading a very fine line between insulting me. 87 00:04:55,415 --> 00:04:58,435 - Hi. - Hi. So, good news and bad news. 88 00:04:58,535 --> 00:05:01,275 Good news, it's all cooking nicely for the Select Committee. 89 00:05:01,375 --> 00:05:04,675 The bad news? You are gonna have to give evidence at Leveson. 90 00:05:04,775 --> 00:05:06,915 - It needs your heft. It needs... - Look, Alan's house 91 00:05:07,015 --> 00:05:09,595 - may have been compromised. - What? 92 00:05:09,695 --> 00:05:11,634 He hired someone to sweep his house for bugs. 93 00:05:11,734 --> 00:05:13,674 That person subcontracted it. 94 00:05:13,774 --> 00:05:16,114 The person they subcontracted it to... 95 00:05:16,214 --> 00:05:18,694 - Worked for Rees. - ... was an associate of Rees. 96 00:05:20,014 --> 00:05:22,034 - How do you know? - I can't tell you. 97 00:05:22,134 --> 00:05:24,434 But I know Rees has been bragging in how he knows the bug sweeper. 98 00:05:24,534 --> 00:05:26,474 Are you sure? 99 00:05:26,574 --> 00:05:28,514 Ask Alan about the socks he keeps 100 00:05:28,614 --> 00:05:31,034 - under the piano. - What socks? 101 00:05:31,134 --> 00:05:33,314 - Oh, Christ. - It's true. 102 00:05:33,414 --> 00:05:35,714 I like him. 103 00:05:35,814 --> 00:05:38,834 I'd get a better feel for the piano if I play barefoot. 104 00:05:38,934 --> 00:05:41,714 Alan, you do not have good hiring practices. 105 00:05:41,814 --> 00:05:43,754 It seems possible to claim. 106 00:05:43,854 --> 00:05:46,233 You hired someone to debug your house, 107 00:05:46,333 --> 00:05:48,273 and instead, they may have compromised... 108 00:05:48,373 --> 00:05:50,753 Are my children in danger? 109 00:05:50,853 --> 00:05:54,353 Dave doesn't think so. I don't know about you and me. 110 00:05:54,453 --> 00:05:59,553 We've got Murdoch on the stand. They know they're being hunted. 111 00:05:59,653 --> 00:06:02,673 Cornered animal, the most vicious animal of all. 112 00:06:02,773 --> 00:06:04,773 Fuck. 113 00:06:06,813 --> 00:06:11,433 I thought the worst of it was over. 114 00:06:14,533 --> 00:06:17,153 The day after Cameron announced the Leveson inquiry 115 00:06:17,253 --> 00:06:19,513 into phone hacking, the CMS Select Committee 116 00:06:19,613 --> 00:06:23,552 issued an order summoning Rupert Murdoch and his son James, 117 00:06:23,652 --> 00:06:25,712 to attend parliament on the 19th of July 118 00:06:25,812 --> 00:06:28,212 to basically explain themselves. 119 00:06:30,252 --> 00:06:33,392 The significance of this moment was not lost on any of us. 120 00:06:33,492 --> 00:06:35,792 If we asked the right questions, we could ensnare them, 121 00:06:35,892 --> 00:06:39,012 both of them, father and son. 122 00:06:56,451 --> 00:06:58,451 Okay, everyone. Settle now, please. 123 00:07:05,851 --> 00:07:10,111 We are now in session. Mr Watson will ask the first question. 124 00:07:10,211 --> 00:07:12,671 Mr Murdoch Sr, Mr Murdoch Jr, 125 00:07:12,771 --> 00:07:15,111 good afternoon, thanks for coming in today. 126 00:07:15,211 --> 00:07:19,151 My first question is for Mr Murdoch Sr. 127 00:07:19,251 --> 00:07:21,871 Um, you have repeatedly stated 128 00:07:21,971 --> 00:07:25,751 that News Corp has zero tolerance to wrongdoing by employees. 129 00:07:25,851 --> 00:07:28,831 - Is that right? - Is that me? 130 00:07:28,931 --> 00:07:31,030 Yes. 131 00:07:31,130 --> 00:07:35,550 In October 2010, did you still believe it to be true 132 00:07:35,650 --> 00:07:37,870 when you made your Thatcher speech and you said, 133 00:07:37,970 --> 00:07:41,950 "Let me be clear. We will vigorously pursue the truth, 134 00:07:42,050 --> 00:07:44,870 and we will not tolerate wrongdoing"? 135 00:07:44,970 --> 00:07:46,910 Yes. 136 00:07:47,010 --> 00:07:51,350 So, if you were not lying then, somebody lied to you. 137 00:07:51,450 --> 00:07:53,630 - Who was it? - I don't know. 138 00:07:53,730 --> 00:07:57,230 That is under police investigation, and we are helping them with. 139 00:07:57,330 --> 00:08:00,030 But you acknowledge that you were misled. 140 00:08:00,130 --> 00:08:02,110 Clearly. 141 00:08:02,210 --> 00:08:04,949 - If I can take you to... - He's doing... 142 00:08:05,049 --> 00:08:09,349 2006, when Clive Goodman was arrested 143 00:08:09,449 --> 00:08:13,549 and subsequently convicted of intercepting voicemails, 144 00:08:13,649 --> 00:08:16,229 were you made aware of that? 145 00:08:16,329 --> 00:08:19,469 I think so, I was certainly made aware of when they were convicted. 146 00:08:19,569 --> 00:08:22,549 And, and what did News International do 147 00:08:22,649 --> 00:08:24,989 subsequent to the arrest of Clive Goodman 148 00:08:25,089 --> 00:08:28,389 and Glenn Mulcaire, to get to the facts? 149 00:08:28,489 --> 00:08:32,069 We worked with the police on further investigation, 150 00:08:32,169 --> 00:08:35,629 and eventually, we appointed, very quickly appointed, 151 00:08:35,729 --> 00:08:40,868 a very leading firm of lawyers in the City to investigate it further. 152 00:08:40,968 --> 00:08:44,628 What did you personally do to investigate that? 153 00:08:44,728 --> 00:08:46,868 After Mr Goodman went to prison, you... 154 00:08:46,968 --> 00:08:49,428 You were obviously concerned about it. 155 00:08:49,528 --> 00:08:51,568 I spoke to Mr, um... 156 00:08:53,288 --> 00:08:57,068 uh, Hinton, who told me about it. 157 00:08:57,168 --> 00:08:59,108 Okay. 158 00:08:59,208 --> 00:09:03,588 Um, in 2008, another two years, 159 00:09:03,688 --> 00:09:06,788 why did you not dismiss News of the World chief reporter, 160 00:09:06,888 --> 00:09:10,188 Neville Thurlbeck, following the Mosley case? 161 00:09:10,288 --> 00:09:12,787 I'd never heard of him. 162 00:09:12,887 --> 00:09:15,507 So none of your UK staff 163 00:09:15,607 --> 00:09:18,267 drew your attention to this serious wrongdoing? 164 00:09:18,367 --> 00:09:21,827 Even though the case received widespread media attention? 165 00:09:21,927 --> 00:09:24,547 I think my son can perhaps answer that in more detail. 166 00:09:24,647 --> 00:09:28,547 - He was a lot closer to it. - I will come to your son in a minute. 167 00:09:28,647 --> 00:09:30,627 Um, can I ask you, 168 00:09:30,727 --> 00:09:35,487 when did you first meet Mr Alex Marunchak? 169 00:09:38,527 --> 00:09:40,507 Mr...? 170 00:09:40,607 --> 00:09:42,867 Alex Marunchak. 171 00:09:42,967 --> 00:09:45,107 He worked for the company for 25 years. 172 00:09:45,207 --> 00:09:47,506 I don't remember meeting him. I might have shaken hands 173 00:09:47,606 --> 00:09:51,386 walking through the office, but I don't have any memory. 174 00:09:51,486 --> 00:09:55,266 Mr Murdoch Sr, you seem to indicate that 175 00:09:55,366 --> 00:10:00,466 you had a rather hands off approach to your company. 176 00:10:00,566 --> 00:10:02,626 Could you just give us an illustration 177 00:10:02,726 --> 00:10:06,386 of how often you would speak to the editors of your newspapers? 178 00:10:06,486 --> 00:10:09,586 For example, how often you would speak to the editor of The Sun, 179 00:10:09,686 --> 00:10:11,886 or to the editor of the News of the World, 180 00:10:14,286 --> 00:10:16,706 Um, very seldom. 181 00:10:16,806 --> 00:10:18,986 Sometimes I'd ring the editor at the News of the World 182 00:10:19,086 --> 00:10:21,306 on a Saturday night and say, "Have you got any news tonight"? 183 00:10:21,406 --> 00:10:23,665 But it was just to keep in touch. 184 00:10:23,765 --> 00:10:29,345 Well, I'm intrigued as to how these conversations might go. 185 00:10:29,445 --> 00:10:32,145 I imagine that to the editor of the News of the World, 186 00:10:32,245 --> 00:10:35,785 it might go along the lines of "Anything to report?" 187 00:10:35,885 --> 00:10:38,065 and the editor of the News of the World says, 188 00:10:38,165 --> 00:10:43,385 "No, no, it's been a standard week. We paid Gordon Taylor £600,000". 189 00:10:43,485 --> 00:10:46,065 He never said that last sentence. 190 00:10:46,165 --> 00:10:49,065 Well, I mean, surely in your weekly conversation with the editor 191 00:10:49,165 --> 00:10:51,105 of the News of the World, with something as big as that, 192 00:10:51,205 --> 00:10:55,825 paying someone a million pounds, paying someone £700,000, 193 00:10:55,925 --> 00:10:58,104 I mean, surely you'd have expected 194 00:10:58,204 --> 00:11:00,424 the editor to just drop it into the conversation 195 00:11:00,524 --> 00:11:03,184 at some point during your weekly chat? 196 00:11:03,284 --> 00:11:05,704 No, I'd say, "What's doing?" 197 00:11:05,804 --> 00:11:08,724 - Sorry? - I'd say, "What's doing?" 198 00:11:10,204 --> 00:11:12,864 And what sort of response would you expect? 199 00:11:12,964 --> 00:11:16,504 Well, he might say we've got a great story exposing X or Y, 200 00:11:16,604 --> 00:11:19,904 or he would say more likely, nothing special. 201 00:11:20,004 --> 00:11:22,664 He might refer to the fact that however many extra pages 202 00:11:22,764 --> 00:11:24,704 were dedicated to the football that week. 203 00:11:24,804 --> 00:11:28,904 But he wouldn't tell you about a million pound payoff? 204 00:11:29,004 --> 00:11:31,343 I just want to say that... 205 00:11:31,443 --> 00:11:34,303 I was brought up by a father who was not rich, 206 00:11:34,403 --> 00:11:36,703 but who was a great journalist. 207 00:11:36,803 --> 00:11:39,583 And he, just before he died, bought a small paper, 208 00:11:39,683 --> 00:11:41,743 specifically in his will, 209 00:11:41,843 --> 00:11:44,823 saying he was giving me the chance to do good. 210 00:11:44,923 --> 00:11:47,903 Now I remember what he did and what he was most proud of, 211 00:11:48,003 --> 00:11:49,943 and for which he was hated in this country 212 00:11:50,043 --> 00:11:52,863 by many people for many, many years, 213 00:11:52,963 --> 00:11:55,703 which was to expose the scandal at Gallipoli, 214 00:11:55,803 --> 00:11:58,023 which I remain very, very proud of. 215 00:11:58,123 --> 00:12:00,303 I think that all students of history will be... 216 00:12:06,042 --> 00:12:09,002 Um, the sitting is suspended. 217 00:12:10,602 --> 00:12:13,462 Fuck it. 218 00:12:13,562 --> 00:12:15,902 The defence told the court 219 00:12:16,002 --> 00:12:18,302 the father of one from Windsor, had wanted to show 220 00:12:18,402 --> 00:12:20,382 his revulsion over the scandal 221 00:12:20,482 --> 00:12:22,582 at News International He'd admitted assault... 222 00:12:22,682 --> 00:12:25,262 - If I get my hands on that fool... - He's in custody. 223 00:12:25,362 --> 00:12:27,542 He thinks what, that his amateur dramatics 224 00:12:27,642 --> 00:12:29,662 are more useful than what we were doing in that room. 225 00:12:29,762 --> 00:12:33,262 - Good questions were asked. - Yeah, but they weren't answered. 226 00:12:33,362 --> 00:12:36,202 - And that obfuscation is important. - It was. 227 00:12:38,442 --> 00:12:41,581 Oh, God, that awful senile act 228 00:12:41,681 --> 00:12:44,661 Murdoch was putting on, that needed writing about. 229 00:12:44,761 --> 00:12:47,581 But now, every paper will carry one thing and one thing only. 230 00:12:47,681 --> 00:12:49,741 Wendi Murdoch fighting for her man. 231 00:12:49,841 --> 00:12:53,381 - You're worrying too much, Nick. - You don't understand news cycles. 232 00:12:53,481 --> 00:12:56,581 - Yeah, well there's still Leveson. - Yeah. Nothing else but Leveson. 233 00:12:56,681 --> 00:12:59,781 There is no air but Leveson. If Leveson doesn't produce- 234 00:12:59,881 --> 00:13:03,861 Then what? Hide under a tea towel for the rest of your life? 235 00:13:03,961 --> 00:13:08,261 Look, Nick, a serious inquiry led by quite a clever bloke 236 00:13:08,361 --> 00:13:11,021 is happening because of your journalism. 237 00:13:11,121 --> 00:13:13,901 It could mean regulation, ethics, 238 00:13:14,001 --> 00:13:16,020 maybe even an appropriate relationship 239 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:18,620 between press, politicians and police. 240 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:20,540 When did you become the positive one? 241 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:22,100 Oh, fuck off. 242 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:25,740 Lord Leveson's report's given us a new press and a new Dave Cook. 243 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:28,400 Fuck off. Twice. 244 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:37,140 What's the latest with the Select Committee? 245 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:39,420 We're gonna get James Murdoch back in. 246 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:41,700 - On what grounds? - Clarity on whether or not 247 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:44,280 he was told about the Neville email. 248 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,539 Why are there police officers in our newsroom? 249 00:13:49,639 --> 00:13:52,519 What? 250 00:13:55,719 --> 00:13:59,779 - They want to talk to Amelia. - Amelia? What about? 251 00:13:59,879 --> 00:14:01,879 They're citing the Official Secrets Act. 252 00:14:10,399 --> 00:14:12,379 - Yep? - Hi. Where are you? 253 00:14:12,479 --> 00:14:14,519 On my way somewhere, I can't tell you where. 254 00:14:16,599 --> 00:14:18,539 Amelia, this is Alan. 255 00:14:18,639 --> 00:14:20,619 Alan, I'm just on my way to meet someone. 256 00:14:20,719 --> 00:14:22,739 What's going on? 257 00:14:22,839 --> 00:14:25,198 I think you should come in. 258 00:14:26,638 --> 00:14:29,618 They're upstairs. They won't go until they talk to you. 259 00:14:29,718 --> 00:14:33,658 - No. Not without a lawyer. - Agreed. 260 00:14:33,758 --> 00:14:34,858 They don't like my biscuits, 261 00:14:34,958 --> 00:14:38,218 and they don't like my small talk about Chopin. 262 00:14:38,318 --> 00:14:40,298 They're saying they need your notebooks. 263 00:14:40,398 --> 00:14:41,818 If you can't find your notebooks, 264 00:14:41,918 --> 00:14:43,978 they'll get a warrant and enter your flat. 265 00:14:44,078 --> 00:14:48,018 If the notebooks aren't in your flat, they could visit your mother. 266 00:14:48,118 --> 00:14:51,298 Tell them I'm not going to give up my source or my notes. 267 00:14:51,398 --> 00:14:53,338 I'd rather go to prison. 268 00:14:53,438 --> 00:14:55,438 Right. 269 00:14:56,838 --> 00:14:58,098 Good. 270 00:14:58,198 --> 00:15:00,697 I'll contact some friends, give you some recommendations, 271 00:15:00,797 --> 00:15:03,617 or you can find a lawyer for yourself, a human rights specialist. 272 00:15:03,717 --> 00:15:07,937 - This will get leaked, right? - I expect so. 273 00:15:08,037 --> 00:15:09,977 But you might need to stay somewhere else tonight, 274 00:15:10,077 --> 00:15:12,057 - a friend's or... - Is this what happens? 275 00:15:12,157 --> 00:15:14,137 We were exposing them, not the other way around. 276 00:15:14,237 --> 00:15:16,177 It isn't what happens. 277 00:15:16,277 --> 00:15:19,517 But it does seem to be what's happening. 278 00:15:20,637 --> 00:15:22,637 I'm so sorry. 279 00:15:31,037 --> 00:15:36,156 - Hi. - Hi. How are you? 280 00:15:37,356 --> 00:15:42,096 - I'm okay. - I'm calling about Leveson. 281 00:15:42,196 --> 00:15:45,136 Um, I'm going to apply to be a core participant. 282 00:15:45,236 --> 00:15:47,176 The group Hacked Off. I don't know if you've... 283 00:15:47,276 --> 00:15:49,856 - Yeah, yeah. - They saw the Channel 4 interview 284 00:15:49,956 --> 00:15:51,896 and they've been pretty insistent that I say something, 285 00:15:51,996 --> 00:15:53,996 not that they're making me. Um... 286 00:15:57,636 --> 00:16:00,056 They seem very good people. They don't really have anyone 287 00:16:00,156 --> 00:16:02,096 to talk to about the Met from the inside. 288 00:16:02,196 --> 00:16:04,696 And I think that's why they want me. 289 00:16:04,796 --> 00:16:07,076 Well, they have you and they have me. 290 00:16:09,475 --> 00:16:12,095 - You're doing it too? - I registered yesterday. 291 00:16:12,195 --> 00:16:15,935 - I was going to email. - There are implications. 292 00:16:16,035 --> 00:16:18,975 - Sure. - For the kids. 293 00:16:19,075 --> 00:16:23,575 We'll have to speak to their school, their friends. We could be targets. 294 00:16:23,675 --> 00:16:25,755 Why is it worse than me doing it than you? 295 00:16:27,715 --> 00:16:31,435 Because of Daniel Morgan, because the case collapsed. 296 00:16:32,915 --> 00:16:35,015 They said you were feeding lines to a witness. 297 00:16:35,115 --> 00:16:37,735 You don't think they're gonna use that against you if you give evi... 298 00:16:37,835 --> 00:16:40,255 No, no, listen, listen, Jacqui. 299 00:16:40,355 --> 00:16:44,494 I just want this out there, same as you do, okay? 300 00:16:52,434 --> 00:16:55,694 Hi, Nick. Sue Akers. I hope I'm not disturbing you. 301 00:16:55,794 --> 00:16:57,854 Deputy Assistant Commissioner, this is quite... 302 00:16:57,954 --> 00:17:01,934 - Call me Sue, please. - ... quite the surprise, Sue. 303 00:17:02,034 --> 00:17:05,074 I was hoping you might have a moment to make me a cup of tea. 304 00:17:06,954 --> 00:17:09,494 Of course I do. Yeah, of course. Come in. Sorry. 305 00:17:09,594 --> 00:17:11,594 - Through here. - Thanks. 306 00:17:16,234 --> 00:17:19,813 You're coming to my house, not a short distance, on a Saturday. 307 00:17:19,913 --> 00:17:23,333 So... whatever this is can't be good. 308 00:17:23,433 --> 00:17:27,833 I mean, I have to assume... it can't be good at all. 309 00:17:28,913 --> 00:17:31,673 - Maybe take a seat. - Oh, God. 310 00:17:33,393 --> 00:17:36,173 Nick, I'm afraid that part of the story you published 311 00:17:36,273 --> 00:17:39,153 about Milly Dowler is inaccurate. 312 00:17:40,313 --> 00:17:42,293 Inaccurate, how? 313 00:17:42,393 --> 00:17:44,573 It looks likely that the News of the World 314 00:17:44,673 --> 00:17:48,093 did not delete voice messages from Milly Dowler's phone. 315 00:17:48,193 --> 00:17:50,173 It probably was the phone company. 316 00:17:50,273 --> 00:17:53,092 That's not... I have... I have two separate sources. 317 00:17:53,192 --> 00:17:58,052 The network she used automatically deleted messages after 72 hours. 318 00:17:58,152 --> 00:18:01,292 That's how we presume they were wiped. 319 00:18:01,392 --> 00:18:04,132 We're using words like "presumed, probable, likely". 320 00:18:04,232 --> 00:18:08,252 And we believe those deletions happened prior to Glenn Mulcaire 321 00:18:08,352 --> 00:18:11,252 being instructed to get inside her phone. 322 00:18:11,352 --> 00:18:13,352 Before Mulcaire? 323 00:18:14,712 --> 00:18:19,292 Nick, I came here in person to acknowledge all you've done. 324 00:18:19,392 --> 00:18:23,332 Without you, Weeting is impossible. Without you... 325 00:18:23,432 --> 00:18:26,651 You can't know for certain who deleted what. 326 00:18:26,751 --> 00:18:30,911 I'm sorry. We'll be releasing a statement to correct the record. 327 00:18:32,471 --> 00:18:35,091 The article said messages were deleted by journalists 328 00:18:35,191 --> 00:18:37,531 in the first few days after Milly's disappearance. 329 00:18:37,631 --> 00:18:40,771 - That's the only inaccuracy. - It's a large one. 330 00:18:40,871 --> 00:18:45,011 I have a good source which tells me Surrey police turned off 331 00:18:45,111 --> 00:18:47,771 the automatic deletion system on the fourth day, 332 00:18:47,871 --> 00:18:51,371 and some voicemail appeared to have been deleted after. 333 00:18:51,471 --> 00:18:53,411 Will they sue? 334 00:18:53,511 --> 00:18:56,291 - No. - Sure? 335 00:18:56,391 --> 00:18:58,331 - They were inside the phone. - Yes. 336 00:18:58,431 --> 00:19:00,970 They may have subsequently deleted messages. 337 00:19:01,070 --> 00:19:03,530 My source tells me they did. I believe my source. 338 00:19:03,630 --> 00:19:05,630 Then there is too much for them to lose in court. 339 00:19:06,870 --> 00:19:09,050 Right. 340 00:19:09,150 --> 00:19:11,450 Well then, we issue a retraction and an apology. 341 00:19:11,550 --> 00:19:14,010 - Fuck. We may not have. - We made a mistake. 342 00:19:14,110 --> 00:19:16,890 We made a mistake, Nick, but there we are. 343 00:19:16,990 --> 00:19:18,930 10 lashes for you, 10 lashes for me. 344 00:19:19,030 --> 00:19:21,210 Sue Akers agrees with most of our story. 345 00:19:21,310 --> 00:19:24,530 They did hack the phone. Surrey police did know about it, surely. 346 00:19:24,630 --> 00:19:26,630 I have two priorities... 347 00:19:27,790 --> 00:19:30,490 that they don't use this to try and obfuscate the crime 348 00:19:30,590 --> 00:19:33,790 they have committed. A dead girl's phone was hacked. 349 00:19:35,469 --> 00:19:37,409 And my other priority is you. 350 00:19:37,509 --> 00:19:39,789 - God. - What was that Carl Bernstein quote? 351 00:19:41,429 --> 00:19:43,609 All great reporting is the same thing. 352 00:19:43,709 --> 00:19:46,569 The best obtainable version of the truth. 353 00:19:46,669 --> 00:19:49,549 I'm going to be absolutely monstered. 354 00:19:50,589 --> 00:19:53,409 It serves them very well to try and destroy your reputation. 355 00:19:53,509 --> 00:19:55,489 I don't want to apologise. 356 00:19:55,589 --> 00:19:59,769 Then don't. The paper has to, you don't. 357 00:19:59,869 --> 00:20:04,469 Stand up, put on some iron underwear, and fight. 358 00:20:10,308 --> 00:20:13,168 - The monstering was high energy. - Fuck you. 359 00:20:13,268 --> 00:20:16,128 Doubt turned into certainty that we had got it wrong. 360 00:20:16,228 --> 00:20:18,168 - Fuck you. - Richard Caseby, 361 00:20:18,268 --> 00:20:20,408 managing editor of The Sun, told the House of Lords Committee 362 00:20:20,508 --> 00:20:23,808 that Alan Rusbridger had sexed up his investigation into phone hacking. 363 00:20:23,908 --> 00:20:26,248 - Fuck you. - Rod Liddle in The Sunday Times 364 00:20:26,348 --> 00:20:28,288 said baldly that The Guardian had made it up. 365 00:20:28,388 --> 00:20:30,768 Shame on you. 366 00:20:30,868 --> 00:20:32,868 But beneath all... 367 00:20:34,068 --> 00:20:37,288 beneath all that exaggeration and hostility, 368 00:20:37,388 --> 00:20:41,288 was the fact that I had stated as a fact, 369 00:20:41,388 --> 00:20:43,508 something which now appeared to be untrue. 370 00:20:46,707 --> 00:20:50,027 I had damaged myself, and I had exposed The Guardian. 371 00:20:52,067 --> 00:20:53,647 So how are you enjoying it? 372 00:20:53,747 --> 00:20:56,567 - Yeah, it's quite a thing. - To be outside your house? 373 00:20:56,667 --> 00:21:00,247 Whatever fuel they have, they're readying to throw in the fire. 374 00:21:00,347 --> 00:21:04,087 - So why are you so calm? - I'm an optimist, slash, pessimist. 375 00:21:04,187 --> 00:21:06,647 I presume I'm capable of great things. 376 00:21:06,747 --> 00:21:09,047 And yet assume the worst is about to happen. 377 00:21:09,147 --> 00:21:12,487 - You always thought you'd be exposed. - My mother said I would be. 378 00:21:12,587 --> 00:21:14,767 Maybe I should be an optimist, slash, pessimist. 379 00:21:14,867 --> 00:21:18,506 I wouldn't recommend, it does... Does horrible things to your guts. 380 00:21:20,266 --> 00:21:22,646 You're really going to New York? 381 00:21:22,746 --> 00:21:25,846 The police haven't charged me. I'm free to go. 382 00:21:25,946 --> 00:21:31,166 But you could just stay here, yesterday's stale toast in no time. 383 00:21:31,266 --> 00:21:33,286 The Evening Standard tried to do a story about me 384 00:21:33,386 --> 00:21:35,486 sleeping with my source. 385 00:21:35,586 --> 00:21:38,286 A few weeks later, they rang and said I was sleeping with an MP. 386 00:21:38,386 --> 00:21:40,326 Wrong Amelia, and she's married to him. 387 00:21:40,426 --> 00:21:43,426 - Yep. - I just, I can't. 388 00:21:45,346 --> 00:21:47,706 I don't want to be the story. 389 00:21:48,746 --> 00:21:50,686 No. 390 00:21:50,786 --> 00:21:53,285 No, I'm not sure I do either. 391 00:21:53,385 --> 00:21:56,765 Luckily, they had a booking free for me on Newsnight tonight. 392 00:21:56,865 --> 00:21:59,605 And Jeremy Paxman is a notoriously kind interviewer. 393 00:21:59,705 --> 00:22:01,645 - You're going on Newsnight? - Yeah. 394 00:22:01,745 --> 00:22:05,825 Against whoever News International think will do me most damage. 395 00:22:06,985 --> 00:22:09,565 But steel underpants filled with stale toast. 396 00:22:09,665 --> 00:22:11,665 It'll be fine. 397 00:22:15,865 --> 00:22:20,245 If I don't come back, I mean, 398 00:22:20,345 --> 00:22:22,585 I want to say something. 399 00:22:23,665 --> 00:22:27,644 When this is all done, and they tell the story of it, 400 00:22:27,744 --> 00:22:30,264 you know, when you look back or write about it... 401 00:22:31,864 --> 00:22:34,204 don't paint me as your protege. 402 00:22:34,304 --> 00:22:38,084 I mean, I've been at this a long time. 403 00:22:38,184 --> 00:22:41,844 I worked Jingle across multiple cases for years. 404 00:22:41,944 --> 00:22:44,324 I mean, it was your story, 405 00:22:44,424 --> 00:22:46,684 and Milly would've never happened without you. 406 00:22:46,784 --> 00:22:48,964 But it wouldn't have happened without me either. 407 00:22:49,064 --> 00:22:52,364 - You didn't say anything. - Don't let them whitewash the others. 408 00:22:52,464 --> 00:22:56,224 - You don't need to say any of this. - I actually do. 409 00:22:57,504 --> 00:22:59,504 You have my word. 410 00:23:02,823 --> 00:23:07,323 Okay. 411 00:23:07,423 --> 00:23:09,363 Email me when you get there. 412 00:23:09,463 --> 00:23:11,403 If Paxman hasn't killed you first. 413 00:23:11,503 --> 00:23:13,963 Then email my corpse. 414 00:23:14,063 --> 00:23:16,063 Good luck, Nick. 415 00:23:31,583 --> 00:23:35,323 Tonight, who knew what and when in the phone hacking scandal? 416 00:23:35,423 --> 00:23:37,802 Could James Murdoch really have been unaware? 417 00:23:37,902 --> 00:23:40,362 Why did The Guardian claim the News of the World 418 00:23:40,462 --> 00:23:42,962 deleted voice messages when they had no evidence? 419 00:23:43,062 --> 00:23:45,002 It was The Guardian newspaper's claim, 420 00:23:45,102 --> 00:23:48,082 stated as fact, that they'd been erased by the News of the World, 421 00:23:48,182 --> 00:23:50,282 which triggered the shutdown of what was once 422 00:23:50,382 --> 00:23:52,962 the biggest-selling paper in the English speaking world. 423 00:23:53,062 --> 00:23:55,002 Nick Davies, let's cut to the chase. 424 00:23:55,102 --> 00:23:58,142 What you claimed to be a fact wasn't a fact, was it? 425 00:23:59,662 --> 00:24:02,122 The story we published in July 426 00:24:02,222 --> 00:24:04,402 was squarely based on the evidence available, 427 00:24:04,502 --> 00:24:07,682 correct in saying that her voicemail was deleted. 428 00:24:07,782 --> 00:24:10,362 And it remains the case that News International are not denying 429 00:24:10,462 --> 00:24:12,401 that News of the World journalists 430 00:24:12,501 --> 00:24:14,881 may have been responsible for those deletions. 431 00:24:14,981 --> 00:24:17,441 Well, let's look at the front page here. 432 00:24:17,541 --> 00:24:20,721 The News of the World hacked Milly's phone during police hunt. 433 00:24:20,821 --> 00:24:22,761 - Exactly. - Then the paper deleted 434 00:24:22,861 --> 00:24:24,881 missing schoolgirl's voicemails, giving family false hope. 435 00:24:24,981 --> 00:24:26,921 - Yeah. - And you say in the copy, 436 00:24:27,021 --> 00:24:28,961 the messages were deleted by journalists 437 00:24:29,061 --> 00:24:31,881 in the first few days after Milly's disappearance. 438 00:24:31,981 --> 00:24:36,001 Everybody who was involved in that story accepted it was true. 439 00:24:36,101 --> 00:24:38,161 It's a very interesting thing that that when that story... 440 00:24:38,261 --> 00:24:40,321 - No, no, no. No. No, no. - ... when that story was done... 441 00:24:40,421 --> 00:24:41,441 You're not allowing me to answer? 442 00:24:41,541 --> 00:24:42,761 I'm not because you're not answering. 443 00:24:42,861 --> 00:24:44,921 Well, you're not asking the right questions. 444 00:24:45,021 --> 00:24:47,640 Oh, I'm sorry! 445 00:24:47,740 --> 00:24:53,200 Everybody involved in that story accepted that that story was true... 446 00:24:53,300 --> 00:24:55,560 - And you believed it to be true. - ... and continued to accept 447 00:24:55,660 --> 00:24:57,880 - until four months later... - Right... 448 00:24:57,980 --> 00:25:00,240 new evidence which was not available to everybody's surprise... 449 00:25:00,340 --> 00:25:02,560 - You did not report it like that. - Showed that 450 00:25:02,660 --> 00:25:04,600 one element of that story 451 00:25:04,700 --> 00:25:06,640 is now in doubt, it has not been proved to be untrue. 452 00:25:06,740 --> 00:25:10,360 So you accept it wasn't true. Jules Stenson was a features editor. 453 00:25:10,460 --> 00:25:12,720 - What do you say? - The key point to this as well, 454 00:25:12,820 --> 00:25:15,080 is that this wasn't any old story. 455 00:25:15,180 --> 00:25:18,720 This was The Guardian's most important story. 456 00:25:18,820 --> 00:25:22,479 It was vital that every single element of it should be right. 457 00:25:22,579 --> 00:25:25,799 And Nick Davies repeated that allegation 34 times. 458 00:25:25,899 --> 00:25:27,839 Let's get things in proportion here. 459 00:25:27,939 --> 00:25:30,919 Your newspaper had hacked a murdered girl's telephone. 460 00:25:31,019 --> 00:25:33,079 What we did was indefensible, not just to Milly, 461 00:25:33,179 --> 00:25:37,079 but to all the victims of hacking, I'm not here to justify that. 462 00:25:37,179 --> 00:25:40,239 What I am here to do, though, is to attack the shoddy journalism 463 00:25:40,339 --> 00:25:42,479 of The Guardian and the shoddy journalism of Nick. 464 00:25:42,579 --> 00:25:45,879 This is a classic example of the way tabloid newspapers work. 465 00:25:45,979 --> 00:25:47,999 You're in a heap of trouble, because for years, 466 00:25:48,099 --> 00:25:50,159 you personally have taken Murdoch's money, 467 00:25:50,259 --> 00:25:54,199 and ruined people's lives, invaded privacy and engaged in crime. 468 00:25:54,299 --> 00:25:56,398 You've hired private investigators in the past, haven't you? 469 00:25:56,498 --> 00:25:58,678 Private investigators who have broken the law, haven't you, Jules? 470 00:25:58,778 --> 00:26:00,718 - I'm not here to justify... - Haven't you, Jules? 471 00:26:00,818 --> 00:26:04,158 You accuse me of shoddy journalism when your name's all over the records 472 00:26:04,258 --> 00:26:06,558 of Steve Whittamore, private investigator 473 00:26:06,658 --> 00:26:08,998 who was convicted of using illegal means, your name's there. 474 00:26:09,098 --> 00:26:11,078 Information about Jamie Theakston, 475 00:26:11,178 --> 00:26:13,678 about Anne Robinson, about an affair... 476 00:26:13,778 --> 00:26:15,718 - There are public interest factors... - You know what, Jules? 477 00:26:15,818 --> 00:26:20,478 Just stop, follow Murdoch's example, and be humble. Or else just go quiet. 478 00:26:20,578 --> 00:26:22,518 - People don't believe you anymore. - Right. 479 00:26:22,618 --> 00:26:25,718 We're done being bullied by the likes of you. We've had enough. 480 00:26:25,818 --> 00:26:28,878 Two years after this, Jules Stenson pled guilty 481 00:26:28,978 --> 00:26:31,417 to conspiracy to hack phones, but... 482 00:26:33,217 --> 00:26:35,217 Well, I wish I knew that at this moment, 483 00:27:13,983 --> 00:27:16,143 Detective Chief Superintendent Dave Cook. 484 00:27:46,815 --> 00:27:50,075 - Hello. - Hi, Jacqui. It's Dave. 485 00:27:50,380 --> 00:27:53,075 David, what's this number? 486 00:27:53,175 --> 00:27:55,715 Listen, Jacqui, I... 487 00:27:56,094 --> 00:27:58,094 I... I need you to pick up the kids. 488 00:27:58,975 --> 00:28:00,900 Where are you calling from? 489 00:28:01,135 --> 00:28:02,940 It's, erm... 490 00:28:03,695 --> 00:28:05,795 It's actually a police station number, Jacqui. 491 00:28:05,895 --> 00:28:08,780 - I'm being arrested. - What? 492 00:28:09,375 --> 00:28:11,260 On what charge? 493 00:28:13,140 --> 00:28:15,739 Misconduct, data protection. 494 00:28:17,659 --> 00:28:19,100 I... 495 00:28:21,100 --> 00:28:24,240 - They raided the house. - Well, did they find anything? 496 00:28:24,340 --> 00:28:26,060 Some old files. 497 00:28:26,420 --> 00:28:29,840 What files? What... Why did you have files at home? 498 00:28:29,940 --> 00:28:32,700 I don't... 499 00:28:33,540 --> 00:28:35,660 What the fuck are they doing? 500 00:28:37,060 --> 00:28:41,860 I don't know, Jacqui. I don't know. 501 00:28:42,180 --> 00:28:44,120 What do we do? How can we help him? 502 00:28:44,220 --> 00:28:46,160 I'm not sure we're gonna help until 503 00:28:46,260 --> 00:28:48,759 - we know what they have. - But we have to do something. 504 00:28:48,859 --> 00:28:52,199 Nick, we both know he was passing information to us, 505 00:28:52,299 --> 00:28:54,299 and they've arrested Amelia's source. 506 00:28:55,299 --> 00:28:57,279 Sit tight. We'll find an answer. 507 00:28:57,379 --> 00:28:59,379 Okay. Bye. 508 00:29:02,579 --> 00:29:04,519 I don't know who you think you have here. 509 00:29:04,619 --> 00:29:09,079 - How about a cup of tea, sir? - No. I would like to leave. 510 00:29:09,179 --> 00:29:11,279 I'm supposed to be giving evidence tomorrow. 511 00:29:11,379 --> 00:29:13,379 I'm a participant in Leveson. 512 00:29:15,939 --> 00:29:18,179 But then, I suppose you already know that. 513 00:29:19,219 --> 00:29:21,759 This conversation is being recorded, sir. 514 00:29:21,859 --> 00:29:24,118 Yes. 515 00:29:24,218 --> 00:29:26,558 I understand that you've refused legal representation. 516 00:29:26,658 --> 00:29:28,638 - Yes. - And I do need to check that 517 00:29:28,738 --> 00:29:30,758 you do fully understand your rights. 518 00:29:30,858 --> 00:29:33,598 I'm 40 years in the police force, son. 519 00:29:33,698 --> 00:29:35,998 Yes, I understand my rights. 520 00:29:36,098 --> 00:29:40,678 Good. All right. Let's start from the beginning, then. Shall we? 521 00:29:40,778 --> 00:29:44,058 Tell me about your relationship with the journalist, Mike Sullivan. 522 00:29:45,338 --> 00:29:47,598 - No comment. - So you deny passing information 523 00:29:47,698 --> 00:29:49,638 to journalists, and, as you know, 524 00:29:49,738 --> 00:29:51,678 police officers working for Operation Elveden... 525 00:29:51,778 --> 00:29:53,718 Operation Elveden is about bribery. 526 00:29:53,818 --> 00:29:56,318 I have never accepted money from a journalist in my life. 527 00:29:56,418 --> 00:29:58,757 This is an operation looking into the corrupt relations between 528 00:29:58,857 --> 00:30:01,097 police and the press. 529 00:30:03,257 --> 00:30:05,197 News International sent us an email... 530 00:30:05,297 --> 00:30:07,437 News International sent you an email? 531 00:30:07,537 --> 00:30:10,797 - Have you any idea... - Do you deny having regular contact 532 00:30:10,897 --> 00:30:13,217 with the journalist Mike Sullivan? 533 00:30:17,737 --> 00:30:20,877 Mike Sullivan and I worked together. 534 00:30:20,977 --> 00:30:23,157 It was John Yates who introduced us. 535 00:30:23,257 --> 00:30:27,197 He had access to my investigation in return for writing 536 00:30:27,297 --> 00:30:30,917 helpful articles in the newspaper, I have done nothing 537 00:30:31,017 --> 00:30:33,556 that a million police officers before me haven't done. 538 00:30:33,656 --> 00:30:36,556 It is standard police practice. 539 00:30:36,656 --> 00:30:38,636 So you did nothing wrong. 540 00:30:38,736 --> 00:30:40,736 Nothing. 541 00:30:42,456 --> 00:30:46,856 40 years in the police service and you didn't know you broke the law. 542 00:30:48,936 --> 00:30:50,936 Shame on you. 543 00:31:30,855 --> 00:31:34,555 They're trying to get us all. They're waiting for any mistake. 544 00:31:34,655 --> 00:31:37,895 Then let's try not to make any mistakes. Come inside. 545 00:31:48,974 --> 00:31:51,574 Lindsay found a spare duvet from somewhere. 546 00:31:52,854 --> 00:31:57,294 - I don't need to stay. - You should. I'd like you to. 547 00:31:59,014 --> 00:32:00,954 Doing a sleepover with the editor of The Guardian. 548 00:32:01,054 --> 00:32:03,854 Not editor. Friend. 549 00:32:05,134 --> 00:32:09,234 This, erm, this may not be entirely comfortable. 550 00:32:09,334 --> 00:32:11,274 I should be helping. 551 00:32:11,374 --> 00:32:13,374 Yes, you should. 552 00:32:14,854 --> 00:32:16,793 A journalist running away to America. 553 00:32:16,893 --> 00:32:20,313 Two police officers under arrest. You're so paranoid. 554 00:32:20,413 --> 00:32:23,473 You're having this house periodically debugged, and it's... 555 00:32:23,573 --> 00:32:25,893 - It's all your fault. - Yeah. 556 00:32:28,253 --> 00:32:30,253 Do you remember when we first met? 557 00:32:31,773 --> 00:32:34,713 I felt like a child who forgot his pencil. 558 00:32:34,813 --> 00:32:39,833 You were so thrusting, and well, I wasn't. 559 00:32:39,933 --> 00:32:42,133 - But you were ambitious. - Hugely. 560 00:32:43,413 --> 00:32:46,633 Compensating for who knows what? And I thought, 561 00:32:46,733 --> 00:32:50,432 "Well, if everyone at The Guardian's like him, I'm done for". 562 00:32:50,532 --> 00:32:52,872 And thankfully, they weren't. 563 00:32:52,972 --> 00:32:55,672 And thankfully, as it turns out, 564 00:32:55,772 --> 00:32:58,672 I had something to offer you... 565 00:32:58,772 --> 00:33:00,772 because you had something to offer me. 566 00:33:03,092 --> 00:33:05,092 Nick. 567 00:33:06,252 --> 00:33:09,792 Don't mistake the fact you were first through the door 568 00:33:09,892 --> 00:33:14,272 with the fact that everyone else went through the same door willingly. 569 00:33:14,372 --> 00:33:18,352 The sacrifices weren't for you. They were for your cause. 570 00:33:18,452 --> 00:33:20,952 You're part of a team, Nick. 571 00:33:21,052 --> 00:33:23,372 The funny thing is, you always have been. 572 00:33:24,931 --> 00:33:26,931 I think he's gonna get away with it. 573 00:33:29,251 --> 00:33:31,191 Murdoch. I think he's gonna get away with it. 574 00:33:31,291 --> 00:33:33,291 Perhaps. 575 00:33:34,651 --> 00:33:37,671 Perhaps that's what abusers do. 576 00:33:37,771 --> 00:33:39,771 Get away with things. 577 00:33:41,571 --> 00:33:43,551 Or perhaps not. 578 00:33:43,651 --> 00:33:47,371 Not really, maybe. Maybe. 579 00:33:49,411 --> 00:33:51,771 Deep down inside them, there's just... 580 00:33:54,851 --> 00:33:57,231 damage. 581 00:33:57,331 --> 00:33:59,630 Yes, but sometimes... 582 00:33:59,730 --> 00:34:02,490 Yes, but sometimes the damage they caused, sometimes... 583 00:34:04,330 --> 00:34:06,450 We're not trying to excuse her... Him. 584 00:34:09,650 --> 00:34:11,650 No, Nick. 585 00:34:13,010 --> 00:34:15,970 I'm not trying to excuse your mother or him. 586 00:34:18,090 --> 00:34:20,090 I'm saying... 587 00:34:21,290 --> 00:34:26,090 all we can do is fight the best we can, and... 588 00:34:27,490 --> 00:34:31,310 hope we prove to be a valiant opponent. 589 00:34:31,410 --> 00:34:34,509 And personally speaking, 590 00:34:34,609 --> 00:34:37,709 I am so proud to have been a part 591 00:34:37,809 --> 00:34:40,569 of this great, valiant act. 592 00:34:41,849 --> 00:34:43,849 Whatever happens... 593 00:34:47,369 --> 00:34:49,369 Know that. 594 00:35:08,848 --> 00:35:11,268 Okay. You're okay. 595 00:36:09,487 --> 00:36:11,647 Don't worry, you're before me. I'm just... 596 00:36:12,927 --> 00:36:14,927 insanely, horrifically early. 597 00:36:16,567 --> 00:36:19,146 - It's Jacqui, isn't it? - Yes. 598 00:36:19,246 --> 00:36:22,426 I read your statement. Strong stuff. 599 00:36:22,526 --> 00:36:25,186 Harrowing, punchy. Nick, by the way. 600 00:36:25,286 --> 00:36:27,826 I know, and thank you, coming from you. That's some... 601 00:36:27,926 --> 00:36:29,926 Thank you. 602 00:36:36,806 --> 00:36:40,346 May I? Mm, I mean, I hope it's okay to ask. 603 00:36:40,446 --> 00:36:42,666 - How's David? - Oh. 604 00:36:42,766 --> 00:36:46,966 It's been a week since we spoke, but he's back in his house, at least. 605 00:36:49,486 --> 00:36:52,665 - He won't take my calls. - He will, when he's ready. 606 00:36:52,765 --> 00:36:55,425 It won't be you. It'll be him. 607 00:36:55,525 --> 00:36:57,765 It's generally him. 608 00:36:59,565 --> 00:37:02,945 He helped, by the way. I'm not sure whether you're aware, 609 00:37:03,045 --> 00:37:05,045 but he helped all of us. He was key. 610 00:37:06,725 --> 00:37:08,765 We wouldn't be here without his help. 611 00:37:14,205 --> 00:37:17,385 Sorry, I need to let you prep. 612 00:37:17,485 --> 00:37:19,485 Run your lines. 613 00:37:23,725 --> 00:37:25,745 Oh, God. I'm usually good with details, 614 00:37:25,845 --> 00:37:28,864 but for some reason today, my mind keeps going blank. 615 00:37:33,564 --> 00:37:35,564 I didn't sleep much. 616 00:37:39,004 --> 00:37:40,944 I didn't sleep much last night. 617 00:37:41,044 --> 00:37:44,384 Not a wink. Then I don't sleep. I'm not someone who sleeps. 618 00:37:44,484 --> 00:37:47,164 - You've always been like that? - Since I was a boy, yeah. 619 00:37:48,644 --> 00:37:50,944 Dave did tell you I wasn't a simple guy to understand, right? 620 00:37:55,044 --> 00:37:57,804 I've had days recently where I can't remember my own name. 621 00:37:59,564 --> 00:38:02,263 I've been in rooms full of people and forgotten why I'm even there. 622 00:38:02,363 --> 00:38:05,963 I suffer, and I have done for years of panic attacks. 623 00:38:07,323 --> 00:38:10,323 Every time I sat down to write this statement, I'd... 624 00:38:12,843 --> 00:38:15,583 But this morning, I woke up and I felt clear, 625 00:38:15,683 --> 00:38:17,623 clearer than I have done in years. 626 00:38:17,723 --> 00:38:21,503 - That's good. - Yes. Just remember, 627 00:38:21,603 --> 00:38:24,423 in the storm of all of this, 628 00:38:24,523 --> 00:38:27,163 in all the mea culpa of... 629 00:38:29,043 --> 00:38:31,543 News of the World, 630 00:38:31,643 --> 00:38:36,442 they decided that in the middle of this inquiry, 631 00:38:37,522 --> 00:38:40,162 to launch The Sun on Sunday. 632 00:38:42,202 --> 00:38:45,362 You're right. They're bold. 633 00:38:46,442 --> 00:38:48,442 Hmm. 634 00:38:51,362 --> 00:38:53,362 Hmm... 635 00:38:58,122 --> 00:39:01,382 That thing you were doing with the ball, I don't mind. 636 00:39:01,482 --> 00:39:03,982 - It helps to calm you. - Oh, come on. Drive you insane. 637 00:39:04,082 --> 00:39:07,342 I've been tested by bigger things. Please. 638 00:39:07,442 --> 00:39:09,442 Do what you need to do. 639 00:39:12,161 --> 00:39:14,501 Oh. Yeah. 640 00:39:24,761 --> 00:39:26,761 I'll be honest, I'm scared of this inquiry. 641 00:39:28,481 --> 00:39:31,841 I'm scared because I think you'll take the wrong recommendations. 642 00:39:33,761 --> 00:39:37,941 And because you'll destroy something which is precious 643 00:39:38,041 --> 00:39:40,041 without rebuilding something better. 644 00:39:41,441 --> 00:39:47,140 I don't want destroyed the notion of the unofficial source. 645 00:39:47,240 --> 00:39:49,940 Sue Akers has arrested... 646 00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:53,380 37, 38 people in the four inquiries she's been running. 647 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:58,340 There have been a couple of arrests of police officers 648 00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:02,220 in cases where I know quite a lot about the circumstances. 649 00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:05,460 What's happened there is those officers have been told 650 00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:08,060 they will be charged with the common law offence 651 00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:10,980 of misconduct in a public office. 652 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:14,900 Despite to the best of my knowledge, there being no allegation 653 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,400 of any kind of bribe or inducement. 654 00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:22,179 What those officers are being told is you will be charged, 655 00:40:22,279 --> 00:40:27,219 and you can expect to get a prison term of up to 18 months 656 00:40:27,319 --> 00:40:31,619 because you've spoken to a reporter without permission. 657 00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:36,259 Now, these two cases alive, we don't know how they'll turn out, 658 00:40:36,359 --> 00:40:38,939 may well be that the Crown Prosecution Service will say, 659 00:40:39,039 --> 00:40:41,859 "Hang on a moment. This doesn't apply". 660 00:40:41,959 --> 00:40:44,859 But... I think it's worrying, 661 00:40:44,959 --> 00:40:47,779 and this is in the wake of the phone hacking. 662 00:40:47,879 --> 00:40:50,659 I worry that it might be a completely unjustifiable 663 00:40:50,759 --> 00:40:53,619 and unnecessary backlash 664 00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:56,858 to the allegation of collusion between 665 00:40:56,958 --> 00:40:58,898 News International and the Met, 666 00:40:58,998 --> 00:41:01,738 and the ultimate effect here may be to prevent 667 00:41:01,838 --> 00:41:06,438 unauthorised contact between journalists and police. 668 00:41:07,798 --> 00:41:10,258 When, as a matter of fact, without this unauthorised contact, 669 00:41:10,358 --> 00:41:13,498 the Metropolitan Police would've been allowed to carry on misleading 670 00:41:13,598 --> 00:41:16,458 press, public and Parliament about this whole scandal. 671 00:41:16,558 --> 00:41:19,098 I'm also scared that this inquiry 672 00:41:19,198 --> 00:41:21,998 might misstep in a different direction. 673 00:41:23,518 --> 00:41:28,297 Might soften itself, as it's attacked from outside sources. 674 00:41:28,397 --> 00:41:30,417 I have been under attack in one form or another ever since 675 00:41:30,517 --> 00:41:32,577 I first attempted to reveal the practice of hacking. 676 00:41:32,677 --> 00:41:36,237 And I represent here today... 677 00:41:37,637 --> 00:41:41,537 a team of people, all of whom have been under similar attacks. 678 00:41:41,637 --> 00:41:45,917 I've had to face extraordinary things to be part of this fight. 679 00:41:47,637 --> 00:41:51,337 They've done so because what you're doing here today 680 00:41:51,437 --> 00:41:54,137 is precious. 681 00:41:54,237 --> 00:41:56,177 News. 682 00:41:56,277 --> 00:41:58,297 I think, I think the best definition of it... 683 00:41:58,397 --> 00:42:01,877 News is what someone somewhere doesn't want you to know. 684 00:42:04,316 --> 00:42:08,536 The most difficult, skilful, interesting, important... 685 00:42:08,636 --> 00:42:12,656 stuff that reporters do is about finding human sources 686 00:42:12,756 --> 00:42:16,056 and motivating them to help reveal that news. 687 00:42:16,156 --> 00:42:19,236 And I can tell you of someone at the front line of that. 688 00:42:20,796 --> 00:42:24,676 News is also often what someone is reluctant to tell. 689 00:42:26,236 --> 00:42:29,736 So it's hard to motivate a human source, 690 00:42:29,836 --> 00:42:31,836 to reveal their truth. 691 00:42:32,916 --> 00:42:35,376 I'd say, look, if I talk to you and they realise I've done this, 692 00:42:35,476 --> 00:42:38,075 then I'll lose my job, or my career. 693 00:42:39,435 --> 00:42:41,655 Or I'll be beaten up, I'll be arrested, 694 00:42:41,755 --> 00:42:45,055 or embarrassed or ashamed, I will hurt people who love me. 695 00:42:45,155 --> 00:42:47,895 It's a very sensitive moment. 696 00:42:47,995 --> 00:42:50,275 You have to make those people safe. 697 00:42:52,835 --> 00:42:57,955 You have to make those people realise their truth is worth the risk. 698 00:43:00,835 --> 00:43:05,555 What these hackers did was about cutting out that human connection. 699 00:43:08,995 --> 00:43:11,335 These so called journalists didn't find the truth. 700 00:43:11,435 --> 00:43:14,474 They didn't persuade people to come with them, they just stole. 701 00:43:15,874 --> 00:43:17,874 They took... 702 00:43:19,394 --> 00:43:21,914 and humanity was lost in that moment. 703 00:43:23,834 --> 00:43:25,774 Not only in the privacy that was invaded, 704 00:43:25,874 --> 00:43:28,254 but also in the stories told from it. 705 00:43:28,354 --> 00:43:33,154 Our papers became dish rags of distorted content. 706 00:43:35,514 --> 00:43:39,554 A set of rogue journalists, working for a rogue corporation... 707 00:43:40,874 --> 00:43:43,274 undermine the very tenets of journalism. 708 00:43:46,074 --> 00:43:48,273 The very tenets of truth telling. 709 00:43:54,073 --> 00:43:58,013 If this inquiry succeeds, we may be able to rebuild our newspapers. 710 00:43:58,113 --> 00:44:01,313 We may be able to make them what they should be. 711 00:44:05,753 --> 00:44:07,853 Fail... 712 00:44:07,953 --> 00:44:10,993 and News International will have trapped us all in their shadow. 713 00:44:14,193 --> 00:44:16,273 And I'm scared that we will never get out. 714 00:47:55,704 --> 00:47:58,619 Sub extracted from file & improved by Se7enOfNin9 for addic7ed.com